Please Critique my House Ruled Crossbows.

[Blacksad]

A short bow is easier to use than a longbow. the english longbowmen were trained for YEARS to be decent at what they did.

As far as I know the longbow men were enlisted middle class citizen, not professional. Their advantage over frnech army was that they bought themselves the costly longbow which was very efficient from a strategic point of vue (fire high above your head so that it fall on the enemy).

The advent of the Xbow meant that anyone could be handed one and do some damage; it was a very big change to the battlefield. It is dirt simple to use, and I have never heard of anything like the 'loop' effect you mention.

yeah, the bow has been around for a long time, but it still took more effort to learn than a Xbow.

I thought that the advent of the crossbow meant the death of plate armor...

P.S. the loop effect is something which provoke some accident even today, with a bit of wind you can kill yourself with a crossbow

 

[Coredump]

As far as I know the longbow men were enlisted middle class citizen, not professional. Their advantage over frnech army was that they bought themselves the costly longbow which was very efficient from a strategic point of vue (fire high above your head so that it fall on the enemy).

There were very few 'professional' soldiers then. That was the whole 'militia' thing. It is a fairly recent occurence that wars are fought with only professional soldiers. It used to contain lots of militia and levys and such.
But it was often required that citizens *had* to own certain weaponry, and practice a certian amount. The Lonbowmen, though not 'professional', required lots of practice. Usually from a fairly young age.
The French (among others) did not see the advantage to the Longbow. Like the English did not see the advantage of gunnery.

The longbow had a longer range, was a much higher pull, and therefore could deliver more arrows, with more effect.

As for the 'fall on the enemy'; the advantage was range, not angle of attack. If you throw a ball 10 meters, it is fairly straight; if you throw it 50 meters, you throw it fairly high. This is just pure physics. So sure, they aimed high, but that was to get range. It should 'land' at about the same angle that it was shot. (okay, wind resistence will have an effect, but it shouldn't be too much.)

I thought that the advent of the crossbow meant the death of plate armor...

Longbows did a number on plate armour also. But neither was all *that* effective at range. (despite some cool famous examples) The difference was that it took a LOT of training to become competent with a Longbow, and a Crossbow got similar range/power results, and any old peasant could use it with little training. The difference was being able to field 50 longbowman, or as many crossbowmen as you had crossbows.
The crossbow was not a 'better' weapon than the longbow, it was just easier (and slower)
The Longbow is often referred to as the 'machine gun' of the middle ages, the Crossbow is....not. This is fairly accurately dipicted in the D20 rules I think.
Honestly, I think the Longbow should be moved to 'exotic', leave the shorbow at martial, and the crossbow at simple.

P.S. the loop effect is something which provoke some accident even today, with a bit of wind you can kill yourself with a crossbow

Sorry, I am going to have to call 'urban legend' on this one. I see NO WAY for a bolt able to penetrate steel is going to be quickly redirected 180 degrees to kill its shooter. It just way does not make sense. Please provide some linkage or something, because this just does NOT happen. A 'bit of wind'??? Think about this for a moment.... And why crossbows and not other bows??
Sorry, doesn't make any sense.

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The difference was that it took a LOT of training to become competent with a Longbow, and a Crossbow got similar range/power results, and any old peasant could use it with little training.
[snip]
Honestly, I think the Longbow should be moved to 'exotic', leave the shorbow at martial, and the crossbow at simple.

But I have really a hard time with this, I did a few gun and bow shooting on targets, and the big difference was range, it doesn't look that much difficult to me.

I can dig it for dagger, lance, its hard to point at a target with those, I understand the inherent difficulties of weilding a sword in an effective way compared to a baton (thanks LARPing ).

But Really, having the longbow as a hard to use weapon seems too much (especialy when you look at the kind of exotic weapon in the PHB).

Sorry, I am going to have to call 'urban legend' on this one.

You are probably right, it cames from a friend trained in the use of bow and crossbow, but I did not find any reference to it through google

And why crossbows and not other bows??
Sorry, doesn't make any sense.

[devil's advocate hat]
Though, I can easily chalenge that, on the rear part of an arrow you have some kind of wings, normaly they are identical, if 2 are of opposite shape, given the speed at which the arrow is sent by a crossbow, it could be pulled high in the air like a plane, then a bit of wind get the arrow back on you.
[/devil's advocate hat]

 

[Rackhir]

But I have really a hard time with this, I did a few gun and bow shooting on targets, and the big difference was range, it doesn't look that much difficult to me.

I would doubt that you were firing the bow at ranges much greater than 50 yards (150') if even that far. That is only a little over the first range increment and unless you practiced a lot I doubt you got that many hits. Further more you were shooting at a stationary target and one that is designed to "catch" your arrows, unlike an armored target. Remember the british longbowmen were shooting at targets several hundred yards away, to break up and kill charging calvery. That's a vastly more difficult target even given that they were a massed target. Also where as a british longbowman could fire something on the order of 6 arrows in a minute, I doubt very much you were firing at anything close to that rate.

But Really, having the longbow as a hard to use weapon seems too much (especialy when you look at the kind of exotic weapon in the PHB).

A long bow is a martial weapon, which means that it's use is restricted to the "fighting" classes for the most part, which is justfied because while it may be simple to learn the basics of how to "use" it. Being able to wield one in a life or death situation against something other than straw stationary targets is a considerably different story. Also remember fighter types ARE essentially the kind of guys who have been training with weapons since they were kids. They are Professionals with weapons.

[devil's advocate hat]
Though, I can easily chalenge that, on the rear part of an arrow you have some kind of wings, normaly they are identical, if 2 are of opposite shape, given the speed at which the arrow is sent by a crossbow, it could be pulled high in the air like a plane, then a bit of wind get the arrow back on you.
[/devil's advocate hat]

Ah No, barring hurricane force winds that isn't going to happen unless you were basically firing it straight up in the air. The "wings" you are talking about don't provide lift, they provide stability and accuracy. If the fletchings provided enough lift to do anything like what you are describing, it would be vastly more difficult to hit anything with a bolt or quarrel since it would not travel on a (relatively) predicable balistic path. As the "lift" provided would make it far more susceptible to any wind influences (like a paper airplane).

 

[Dievs]

The longbow is superior to crossbow in all ways, except ease-of-training.
The rules reflect that.
A bow in primitive cultures isn't used to hit a moving target at long range, it is a shortbow fired at 30' at unsuspecting animals - your mage can do that with all the -4 for not being proficient with bows.

Crossbow is simpler to aim, as you can aim it as you would a stick, straight at the enemy. It can be taught to militias in a matter of days.

There are some ancient english laws that every capable male has to practice bows every week at a fairly long range, with a fairly steep penalty. It really took that long to become professional with longbow.

Thus, the crossbows only advantage becomes extremely important. If the cheap manpower that you've got cannot handle the longbow, they you're stuck with the inferior crossbow.

 

[Blacksad]

I would doubt that you were firing the bow at ranges much greater than 50 yards (150') if even that far. That is only a little over the first range increment and unless you practiced a lot I doubt you got that many hits. Further more you were shooting at a stationary target and one that is designed to "catch" your arrows, unlike an armored target. Remember the british longbowmen were shooting at targets several hundred yards away, to break up and kill charging calvery. That's a vastly more difficult target even given that they were a massed target. Also where as a british longbowman could fire something on the order of 6 arrows in a minute, I doubt very much you were firing at anything close to that rate.

Though, someone said that they fired arows in the air to get range, to fire many it requires skills, but to fire in the air?

Ah No, barring hurricane force winds that isn't going to happen unless you were basically firing it straight up in the air. The "wings" you are talking about don't provide lift, they provide stability and accuracy. If the fletchings provided enough lift to do anything like what you are describing, it would be vastly more difficult to hit anything with a bolt or quarrel since it would not travel on a (relatively) predicable balistic path. As the "lift" provided would make it far more susceptible to any wind influences (like a paper airplane).

[devil's advocate]
ah! but you didn't read carefuly, it is stable if your arrow is normal! now if 2 wings are of opposite shape, it change everything!
[/devil's advocate]

 

[Rackhir]

Though, someone said that they fired arows in the air to get range, to fire many it requires skills, but to fire in the air?

[devil's advocate]
ah! but you didn't read carefuly, it is stable if your arrow is normal! now if 2 wings are of opposite shape, it change everything!
[/devil's advocate]

I'm not entirely sure what your points are but I'll see if I understand them.

To fire an arrow with a high angle trajectory to hit a target at a substantial distance requires an extraordinary amount of skill. You are trying to eyeball a parabolic curve to figure out if the arrow will land where you want it to. This is a far more difficult task than the effectively straight line trajectories that a gun or crossbow uses.

If you are talking about adding wings to an arrow, then yes your "devils advocate" situation is possible, but it is the kind of idea that would be developed at the Department of Silly Walks. It isn't going to happen with a standard arrow/bolt. Which was my point.

 

[Coredump]

But I have really a hard time with this, I did a few gun and bow shooting on targets, and the big difference was range, it doesn't look that much difficult to me.

Okay, but was the bow almost 2 meters tall? And have a pull of 80-110 pounds? With a draw of almost a meter?

What you were shooting was a shortbow, and yes, that one is easier. (Still, try shooting at a moving target, a bit farther away)

Though, I can easily chalenge that, on the rear part of an arrow you have some kind of wings, normaly they are identical, if 2 are of opposite shape, given the speed at which the arrow is sent by a crossbow, it could be pulled high in the air like a plane, then a bit of wind get the arrow back on you.

*Nothing* you do with those fletchings is going to make that bolt go 'high into the air'. And even is it did, the bolt is way too small to be effected *that* much by wind.

Crossbow is simpler to aim, as you can aim it as you would a stick, straight at the enemy. It can be taught to militias in a matter of days.

This isn't exactly true. Physics/gravity/parabolic paths effect bolts the same as arrows. If you want extensive range from a Xbow, you still need to arc the shot. While the pull strenght of a Xbow is often much higher than a 'regular' bow, its power stroke is much shorter.