Please Help: Archer Build

[Kaisoku]

It's a bad idea to get caught up in the name of a class for flavour ("Scout" sounds good, but mechanically?).
Honestly, your character in-game will describe himself how he describes himself, whether he has the Scout class or Ranger class or Rogue class, is really immaterial to how you flavour him.
I ran a Babarian, Ranger, Rogue, Fighter multiclass character that called himself a "guerrilla anti-incursion fighter". The name of the class is just a label that makes it easier to know what page to turn to in order to find your abilities.

From what you've said so far, here's the impression I'm getting about the type of character you want to play:

• Tracking ability
• Stealth ability, presumably while tracking
• Decent/high perception
• Sniper tactics (as in, initiate combat from range, stay at range and hidden preferably even if your allies enter melee, and do devastating damage while doing this).
• Magical abilities are part of your race/training, so spellcasting is not to be avoided.

If I get any of these wrong, or if there's more to it then these, let me know.

So, here's what each class offers:

Ranger
The ranger is fairly well pre-built with a ton of abilities that emphasize what you are looking for.

- Combat Style allows choosing most of the feats you'd want anyways (short of Vital Strike line, and possibly a couple others).

- Tracking is heavily emphasized between a general class bonus, favored enemy/terrain bonus, swift tracking, and at higher levels those quarry abilities make tracking down "the one that got away" even easier.

- Stealth is a class skill, and you are likely going to be lightly armored (and have spells to assist). On top of that, there's some unique features: no leaving a trail in your favored terrain, and there's a spell for anywhere else, camouflage allows hiding in areas where you wouldn't even be able to normally, and hide in plain sight makes disappearing right in front of your enemies' eyes a possibility.

- Wisdom spellcasting means you'll be boosting your magical talent along with perception abilities.

- Magically, you get some juicy spells to compete even in the higher level field: Nondetection, Freedom of Movement, etc. Commune with Nature is not to be underestimated for higher level scouting purposes.

Overrall, short of pure damage increasing abilities, the Ranger has something great to offer in every aspect of your character. Against a favored enemy, he'll be very deadly. Clearly, the Ranger will likely be your base starting point.

Rogue
While the rogue doesn't fulfill the full ideas you want, a splash of rogue levels maintains the skilled side of things, but brings a couple new things to the plate:

- Sneak Attack combined with sniper tactics will allow for really good damage against any target (as opposed to just your Favored enemy). To maintain your stealth though, you need to do a move action to re-hide after a sniping attack, so you are limited to one Sneak Attack sniping shot per round anyways. You can get a full attack of sneak attack damage if you go before your target, of course.

- Some Rogue Talents to consider:

• Fast Stealth means you can move at full speed while hiding along with the Ranger's full speed tracking at no penalty. For a Scout, this is a critically useful combo that you can get very quickly (2 Rogue, 8 Ranger, so in 2 levels from your campaign start).
• Bleeding Attack can let you snipe someone, and watch a they bleed out and leave a trail...
• Combat Trick gives you access to any combat feat, allowing that option you didn't get from you Combat Style. To a lesser extent, Weapon Training gives weapon focus, but honestly you have better choices for your limited talents.

Since the Rogue doesn't offer much else, you can pretty much dial in how many levels you want based on how many talents appeal to you, or how much Sneak Attack you want.
One thing to REALLY keep in mind, Sneak Attack only applies on ranged attacks within 30'... that's extremely close for a "sniper" type of character, and you could find yourself rarely gaining this bonus.

Scout
The scout has a number of bonuses, and the Swift Hunter feat lets him mesh well with a Ranger multiclass.

- Skirmish suffers the same problem as Sneak Attack, it's only good within 30'. If you are within 30', you are likely going to be limited in your sniping ability.
Now, if sniping includes moving from one cover to another, then you can get a shot in fairly frequently. The problem is that unlike sneak attack, you can't get a full round of full attack bonus damage if you act earlier on the first round.

Otherwise, the Scout has similar ancillary benefits as the Rogue (skillpoints, uncanny dodge, a feat or two, etc). Since this is a splash class, you aren't likely to see the higher level benefits (blindsense, camouflage, etc).
Between the two, I'd say that Rogue's Sneak Attack has better usage, even though you can pump up skirmish with a feat choice. Sneak Attack doesn't force you to decide between full attack and move+attack either... it's just a nice benefit on your first shot (making your first attack a killer one).

Speaking of which, if you are using Complete Scoundrel anyways... you might want to pick up the skill trick Spot the Weak Point, since it'll make that first shot a touch attack if you have one round to prepare. Two arrows, Sneak Attack, and whatever other riders you can pump onto that first shot can mean some scary "first strike" capability.

_____________________________________________________

Honestly, my own personal approach would be 3 levels of Rogue for +2d6 Sneak Attack and the Fast Stealth talent. This would let you keep hide in plain sight from Ranger levels (at the highest levels). Basically, the trade off is the improved quarry and master hunter abilities to gain the extra damage from sneak attack over more of your gaming career.
Otherwise I'd go straight Ranger.

I can't see the skirmish ability being more used comparitively, since you give up your full attack for it. The difference between 5d6 (at the highest levels) and 2d6 (gained pretty much right away), is ~10 damage. Each attack brings with it bow damage, str damage, and whatever magical enhancements you've got... it's really no contest.
While Vital Strike looks like it'll push the damage up, it's only giving the weapon damage in bonus for each iterative given up (so +1-3d8). And since a full attack can include the Rapid Shot extra attack and extra arrow from Manyshot (that does include enhancements to damage), it's still not going to be the better option, damage-wise.

Some thoughts on other features:

- Pick the animal companion for Hunter's Bond. If you pick a flying animal, you can get a really good utility ability out of this. Sniping means you probably won't be near melee combat for a Wolf or Big Cat to be directed properly, so a more utility purpose animal work best here.
Scouting purposes, a flying creature can come in very handy. Give it an Int boost at 4th HD, and it can now pick any skill or feat you want it to, and even understand your language for full communication (at least one-way).

- Sniping has a -20 to your stealth check. Invisibility grants you +40 to stealth for standing still. Getting your hands on Greater Invisibility would be hugely beneficial to your playstyle.
Sadly, this means Arcane Archer might be a good prestige class idea, however you do end up giving up a large chunk of "ranger/scout" stuff to get it.
You might have to resort to custom magical items or ally aid.
Although, if you do pick up a couple levels of Rogue, you can get a decent Use Magic Device score. A class bonus +3, skill focus feat of +6 and level 10 (ranks) means no-fail wand usage with a Charisma of 10, and Greater Invisibility is a 4th level spell (valid for a wand).

- If you can gain more damage that works in all situations, you can snipe at greater ranges and still deal good damage. Offsetting that -20 sniping by forcing range penalties to their Perception checks, essentially.
So instead of sneak attack damage, you could try pumping up your weapon enhancements and damage from feats.
Vital Strike comes into play here (since it has no range restrictions), and you'll be forced to a single attack anyways.
The Wounding weapon enhancement can make a nasty tool to cause your victim to bleed to death as they try to find where your attacks are coming from. If it's a creature that can't do a heal check or cast curative magic (or have any nearby), it's basically dead. Play the role of a real-life hunter: one shot, and wait for it to bleed to death.
Otherwise, a Flaming, Frost, Shock, Holy, etc, weapon/ammunition will deal significant damage no matter the range.

I took a quick glance at some other 3.5 prestige classes and feats, but none really jump out enough to justify losing the Ranger spellcasting and higher level abilities.

 

[Shazman]

To be honest, fighters make some of the best archers as far a damage and accuracy go. With a good str and dex, plus a mighty composite bow, plus lots of feats and weapon training, your to hit and damage bonuses add up pretty quickly. Throw in some good gear like bracers of archery, and you can do some really sick damage. You also have enough feats to invest some in melee combat in case you are forced to drop your bow and swing a sword.

 

[pawsplay]

Quick Draw is a good idea, regardless of build, so you can swap bow for melee and vice versa.

 

[Kaisoku]

Quickdraw doesn't let you sheath or put away a weapon though... meaning you'll likely have to drop your primary weapon (the heavily enchanted one) to get that secondary melee weapon.

In Pathfinder, Catch Off Guard and eventually Improvised Weapon Mastery are two good feats for this kind of thing. A bow might be considered at least a club in damage capability (going by the improvised weapon rules for finding a close approximation, as a greatclub would be too much).
With the mastery feat, it'd be 1d8 19-20/x2, which is a fairly decent weapon to fall back on.

 

[Zurai]

Xendria... good idea, but a fighter is not fitting the fluff. Flavor-wise, I want the character to be a ranger and sniper. It has to be an elf, although a half-elf would make a much better ranger in Pathfinder (why is that???), and every elf who doesn't go wizard seems to lose some of his potential -- now once, I don't play a wizard, and then this makes it an even more suboptimal choice

Basically, the character is a member of an elite elven hunter/defender unit, guarding and protecting the homelands. I'd need good stealth and tracking for the character, and I'm looking forward to using some of the ranger spells. Of course, having more spellcasting would be even better.

You can easily do everything but the spells with a Fighter. Don't forget that there's no penalty for putting ranks in cross-class skills in Pathfinder. It's entirely possible to build a Fighter (especially an Elven one with their bonus to Int) with max ranks in Stealth, Perception, and Survival with skill points left over. And you can always take a couple levels in an arcane class and go Arcane Archer if you want (although honestly, straight up Fighter is going to be stronger than an Arcane Archer; it's also going to be stronger than a Ranger or Ranger/Scout). You'll be more accurate than a ranger, hit for more damage, have more non-archery combat options, and be, if not equally as good at tracking, at least competent enough at it to get the job done. You'll also be able to wear better armor with no penalty.

Don't dismiss the Fighter because of how much they sucked in 3.5. The various Pathfinder changes have directly and indirectly boosted the Fighter and it's now by far the strongest combat class (exception: Paladins are stronger vs evil undead, evil outsiders, and evil dragons as long as their smites last). They blow Rangers and Barbarians out of the water. They're still entirely lacking in non-combat class features, but they do benefit from the skill consolidations, cross-class skill changes, and extra skill points from favored class benefits, such that they can actually be relevant with skills now.

 

[Kaisoku]

While normally I'd agree regarding skills, it's just not as quick and dry for the Fighter in this case.

The problem isn't just about class skills. Rangers get half their level in bonus to tracking, swift tracking abilities, and in their favored terrain they have bonus to initiative, perception, stealth and a further survival bonus (not to mention against a favored enemy they'll have further stacking bonuses on top of all that).

Being able to track at full speed, and later take 10/20 on tracking a specific target is far and beyond the +3 difference cross class makes.

Rogues also have the talent for stealth at full speed, yet another feature not accessible in any other way.
Plus, the Ranger has Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight for stealth at higher levels too.

Yeah, a Fighter can manage to stealth or track if he needs to (especially because of the armor training now). But there is simply no way to excel at it like the other classes involved.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

The thing is however, those classes are made to excel at that. The fighter will always be a better archer. And he can indeed be very good at stealth and tracking. He will never be as fast as a rogue at stealth nor as good at tracking in his favored terrain as a Ranger, but he can be built to do do the same thing.

They will be better at tracking and stealth and he'll always be better at making things die. All in all the fighter can pull off a well rounded "scout " with ease. The ranger will be better at tracking and the rogue better at stealth, which is fine, but the fighter can be pretty good at both and still out kill the other two.

 

[Kaisoku]

*shrug*

I was under the impression that scouting utility (and spells) were more important that murder-death-kill for this character.

 

[IronWolf]

*shrug*

I was under the impression that scouting utility (and spells) were more important that murder-death-kill for this character.

I agree. The original poster certainly seemed to favor the ranger feel and even mentioned wanting good stealth and tracking ability. And I also agree that character class choices shouldn't be based on the what can do more damage and such if the feel of the ranger matches the fluff aspect of the character better.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

Shrug, I was just saying a Fighter can pull the scout thing off as well.