Political Correctness - An end to alignment troubles

Sigh. This only works with a very particular world-view. Your definitions are quite controvercial politically. Basically, your rules combine Kant and Communism (Certainly by your rules, capitalism and everything taht surrounds it is evil). Many people have serious issues with one or both.
 

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Green Knight said:
Zuh? Since when are any of these intrinsically evil?

They aren't. But a lavatory is not a place to wash, either.

These terms are being put forward as euphemisms used in the the 'Urbis' setting, where calling evil 'evil' can get your arse sued off. Nothing wrong with calling someone 'pragmatic'. '"Survival-oriented", Your Honour? I meant it as a compliment.' But people know what you mean, or at least they think they do.

There still can't be any philospohical doubt about what is good and what is evil, though.

Regards,


Agback
 

Now we just need some politically correct means of paladins smiting the pragmatics. If it works in your world, great- I just don't see it fitting standard cosmology.

I've taken the view in dnd campaigns that I've run that, simplistically speaking, evil and good are closer to molecules... building blocks of what you do. Someone eating broccoli gets iron in their system simply by eating it and it working its way into their bodies. A detect iron spell would make people appear as blips if they've eaten broccoli... same for evil. Acting evil infuses you with evil just like eating broccoli infuses you with iron. If you're a "bad person" your diet regularly consists of evil. Or if you're attached to the broccoli part of the cosmos you're naturally broccolistic.

I mean.. evil. and with iron. erm.

Bottom line- eating broccoli isn't enough to get a mace in the face.
 

DM_Matt said:
Sigh. This only works with a very particular world-view. Your definitions are quite controvercial politically. Basically, your rules combine Kant and Communism (Certainly by your rules, capitalism and everything taht surrounds it is evil). Many people have serious issues with one or both.

Absolutely. Very Orwellian. If you don't like the label, change it so that it no longer applies. Slavery, rape, and torture aren't evil. They are double ungood.

Enough with the moral equivalency fallacy. One man's evil brigand or dark lord is another man's good freedom fighter or great ruler and all that garbage. Terminology may be relative. But the facts on who targets the innocent and who doesn't, objectively defines who is Good and who is Evil. Regardless, of the words used by anyone to describe their actions.

I also find the Dragonlance campaign setting cool in imagery but laughable in its universal assumptions. That too much good is some sort of undesirable outcome. Often the priestking of Istar is trotted out as the example of what happens when good is in charge. Thought police and all that. And of course, everyone knows Takhisis is evil because she just wants to conquer everything and oppress those beneath her, yet many Knights of Takhisis are portrayed as sympathetic characters. See? The relativists cry. You can't just paint Good or Evil with a broad brush. So neutrality is the desired outcome. Some sort of balance is sought because neutrality is best. Neutrality takes the best qualities of both evil and good for the benefit of everyone.

Not only is this utterly absurd, its WRONG! Good and evil aren't just teams where the players on both sides can do good or bad things.

Good is always good. No matter what. Period. Such is the very definition of the word. Likewise, Evil is always evil. No exceptions.

Where the problem arises is when people take and use these terms incorrectly to obscure or couch their motives and actions in language more favorable to themselves. So, although the terminology employed by such people may be used in a deceitful manner, it in no way changes the objective reality of whether their actions or motives truly are Good or Evil.

Just because the Kingpriest of Istar in the Dragonlance setting promoted a thought police policy, and just because he was supposedly "good", doesn't mean that he was actually good or that such an oppression is good at all. (How do we know he was good? The authors told us :rolleyes: )

Likewise, just because the authors tell us the Knights of Takhisis are evil. Obviously many of them are not. No, this is not proof that evil has "good" qualities. How absurd! Rather it is proof that those individuals are just not evil.

Opposing the Kingpriest was not an act of neutrality or an act of evil. It was an act of good! Likewise, opposing Takhisis in her evil plans and acts is also an act of good.

This begs the question, what is so desirable about the evil that the gods of neutrality seek balance? If there is something about evil that is desirable or "good" than its not really evil is it? In fact, its good. And if some supposedly "good" act is not really good, then its not. Its evil.
 
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Jürgen Hubert said:
Why not simply lock up or exile anyone who registers as "Evil"?

Why not? They are evil, criminal scum. Hunt them down and wipe them out.

If they don't deserve exile, lockup or death for their vile deeds, then you shouldn't have them register as "evil" in the first place. And if they do deserve such punishment, then whats the problem?

You should completely remove such spells from the game or change the way they work, if this reality doesn't suit you. And it would be the logical reality of a campaign where Detect Evil spells exist and where good and evil really are forces that drive the cosmos.
 
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Dragonblade said:
Just because the Kingpriest of Istar in the Dragonlance setting promoted a thought police policy, and just because he was supposedly "good", doesn't mean that he was actually good or that such an oppression is good at all. (How do we know he was good? The authors told us :rolleyes: )

Admittedly I haven't read any of the newer Dragonlance books but in the original books that I read the Kingpriest was clearly evil (though he may have been good originally) he was used as an example of how Pride can corrupt even the noblest soul.
 

I think all of this is leading back to a major point.

IF Good, Evil, Law & Chaos are absolutes.

And IF we can Detect such alignments easily.

Then why NOT lock up all who are Evil?

This is why I find D&D alignments very weird. They want to have it both ways -- moral greys and absolutes simultaneously.

If Detect Evil detects an Absolute (Real Evil) then there must be a singular and true measure of what is Evil. Thus if anyone falls into that camp they are Evil, without question.

How well does D&D really measure "Good-for-the-moment"? It doesn't. There are absolute constructs of Good and Evil, of Law and Chaos. Yet players want the flexibility to alter from time to time. This doesn't really fit the base constructs of the world as given in the game books.

To me this is pretty much a binary choice: either alignments are Absolutes or they are not. If they are, then there needs to be set definitions of what constitutes Good, Evil, Law, Chaos and these rules do not alter (which seems pretty Lawful, if you ask me). If, conversely, there are competing ideas about what constitutes Good, Evil, etc., and there are sliders on the scale, then how do items and spells that work with Good, etc., actually function?

"Hmm," sez the Holy Avenger, "He gave only 8% of his treasure to the temple, but he is supposed to give 10%, but he did help that little old lady find her lost grandkids, but he did tell some lies to get past those guards, but he did tell a joke to make the little girls smile when she thought all was hopeless -- I guess he rates as Kinda Good... Maybe I should turn off half my functions for him."

Okay, that may be a flippant example, but I don't think it is far off the mark.

That is why I do away with alignment and alignment-based items, spells, etc. Yes, it makes the world a little murkier, but in the end it feels more correct.
 

CRGreathouse said:
Because, surely, only a succubus would be evil?

Once, IMC, a character managed to cast detect evil, unobserved, in a princely court (it's a long story about how he did this, but anyway...) and read many evil auras. This didn't make him think there were monsters/devils/etc. in the room; in fact, he explained it away to a fellow PC shortly afterward. ("While some of their hearts may be black, none among them is the one we seek -- and it is not for us to pass judgement.")

Hence the reason i have NO alignment detection IMC. Its up to the PCs to use their diplomacy and investigative skills to determine who has a heart of gold and who would sell their own mother to slavers.
 

Valiantheart said:
Hence the reason i have NO alignment detection IMC. Its up to the PCs to use their diplomacy and investigative skills to determine who has a heart of gold and who would sell their own mother to slavers.

Did you also get rid of Smite Evil, holy word, holy weapons, & the like? Those can be made to function as ad-hoc alignment detectors.

("I lightly slap the guy, doing 1d3-1, and use Smite Evil; if he gets knocked across the room, he's evil," or "Hey, hold this dagger for a minute. Ooh, you look pained -- is that perchance a negative level you're feeling?", or even a good old, "Look, if you're as pure and righteous as you claim to be, what I'm about to say won't hurt a bit.")

:)
 

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