D&D (2024) Poll: Will WOTC change the way cantrips scale for multiclass characters?

Will the new rules change the way cantrips scale?


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I chose Firebolt specifically for a reason- it scales (which is the point of this discussion, isn't it?), is arguably the best cantrip for scaling (since it lacks the issues of dealing easily resisted damage or is negated on a save).
I mentioned this with good reason
Stuff like true strike and blade wars could be a boon depending on the eventual version of the spell we see

You are stil relying on bad reasoning atop negative charop. Lots of cantrips scale and actually provide rogue something useful...
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Most classes that do not rely on cantrips for their "at-will" damage have class features that improve their attacks in such a way as to make it less desirable to use a cantrip, let alone one that does not scale. That is my point- there's very little reason to deny cantrip scaling to a character that acquires a cantrip through non-class means because their class chassis isn't designed around cantrip use.
That cuts both ways, you are just trying to choose a victor and imply anything else would be denying them that they deserve... For example: Most classes that do not rely on ranged/melee weapons for their "at-will" damage do not have class features that improve their ranged/melee weapon damage in such a way that would make it desirable for them to use ranged/melee weapons, let alone one that does not scale. That is also your point - there's very little reason to deny extra or sneak attack to a character that acquires weapon proficiency through non-class means because their class isn't designed around weapon use. If that wording looks familiar, it should, look at the quote above it.
About the only exceptions are the "weapon attack" cantrips and Eldritch Blast. I'm not discussing the former because 1, they aren't core, and 2, in this case, I agree those cantrips shouldn't have scaled at all, especially since they were designed for a subclass that also gains Extra Attack. For the latter, it should have been and hopefully will be a class feature.

I also can't really discuss the future True Strike until it's final form is revealed.
Weird you would choose a cantrip incapable of meaningfully synergizing with or adding to the rogue's toolbelt rather than one of the many that could or acknowledging that we already had one example of a newly capable cantrip even though I was able to name quite a few other than truestrike. Even produce flame's capability to shed light provides more value to as rogue than firebolt & both the published+UA version does that.
 
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ECMO3

Hero
No, but I voted caster level because that's what I think the rule should be. I despise caster dips just to get a powerful cantrip.

Well each to his own I guess. In the case mentioned I did get a powerful cantrip due to a Warlock dip, but that wasn't the reason for the dip, the Thematics and the Undead subclass were.

Having Eldritch Blast makes me good at resource-free ranged combat, and I am good at melee with strength weapons, War Magic, plate and the shield spell. But I am not really awesome at either.

That said it is not without tradeoffs. I have a 20 Charisma so EB/AB is good (and EB/AB + War Magic is an option even) and I have a lot of versatility with a ton of Drow spells, 2 pacts slots and some neat EK Abjuration spells. But I also have a 16 Strength and a 12 Constitution at 12th level and I am down an ASI.

Is this any better in combat than a straight Drow 12th-level Eldritch Knight? On the same point buy I could get a fighter with a 20 strength to be better in melee, a 20 Dexterity to be good with a Longbow, while also having a better 14 Constitution and 3 attacks with my weapons.

Is a 16 Strength, 8 Dex, 12 Con, 20 Charisma EK with with a dip and EB/AB a lot better? I don't think so. More versatile certainly due to the extra spells, evocation and pact slots, but not strictly better I don't think. And certainly it is not better than the 12th level Warlock that can cast 3 5th level spells per short rest, plus a 6th level to boot.

People often lament that martials are generally weak compared to full casters (and I agree). Cantrips scaling by character level is something that primarily benefits martials who dip.
 
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Well each to his own I guess. In the case mentioned I did get a powerful cantrip due to a Warlock dip, but that wasn't the reason for the dip, the Thematics and the Undead subclass were.
If you took the dip for thematics, then it having cantrips scale to caster level and not character would not have impacted your choice. Seems like a good reason to scale by caster level to me...

The rest of your comment supports my personal view. I don't roleplay for rolling optimization. So none of that would sway me and would just make me feel like it supports my view. But then again, I've always felt that a pure class character should be the best there is for that class's 'trope', not some mix of classes due to dips and optimization.
 

ECMO3

Hero
But then again, I've always felt that a pure class character should be the best there is for that class's 'trope', not some mix of classes due to dips and optimization.

Well yes, but I am not playing to a Trope. I have a ton of low level spells (Drow, Drow High Magic feat, Warlock, Fighter) but I am a very mediocre and underpowered caster for the level and I am good, but not dominant with weapons.

That is my point kind of; looking at my character, a single class fighter is better at the pure fighter trope, and a single class Warlock is A LOT better at the Warlock trope.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Sorcerous Burst.

That's the spell.

Sorcerous Burst will likely scale with sorcerer level only.

No taking Magic initiate for scaling Sorcerous Burst without being a Sorcerer.
 

What prompted this is tonight's game. I am playing a Drow Eldricth Knight 8/Undead Warlock 2/Paladin 2. She is mostly a melee controller using blade cantrips, Form of Dread and War Magic with a Divine Smite or Wrathful Smite thrown in there occasionally. Shen got EB and Hex at level 2 (F1/W1) and Agonizing Blast since level 7 (F5/W2). She used EB occasionally before, but tonight is the first time in the whole campaign I actually cast Hex. We needed some high damage so I went Hex and then action surge and unleashed 6 EB/AB beams with Hex (she also has a 20 Charisma). The DM said "you get 3 Eldritch blasts .... yep it is 3 at 11th level". The DM said "that will be changing soon", meaning with the new PHB.

What do you think. Will WOTC change the way cantrips scale?

On one hand I can see the propensity for abuse, on the other hand this is one of the great things about 5E compared to earlier versions where your cantrips (and to a lessor extent spells) were near useless if you just dipped a caster. Undoing this would just be "not fun" IMO.
It is action surge that will change.
 

ECMO3

Hero
You can get fighting styles as an entry level feat, I believe weapon or armor proficiencies are too. You can not get extra attack or some other fifth level clsss feature as any level feat.

Your attacks scale with level as your proficiency bonus scales and the scaling is common for all weapon attacks for all classes. Additionally the damage is the same for all weapons at all levels unless you are playing a Monk, meaning there is no scaling on weapon damage.

Extra Attack is a specific class ability (or in some cases a subclass ability) not a core mechanic like the weapons themselves or the cantrips.

Someone who takes a 5 level dip in a class that gets extra attack can use that all the way up to level 20 and their attack rolls scale the same as if they kept taking martial levels.
 
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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
People often lament that martials are generally weak compared to full casters (and I agree). Cantrips scaling by character level is something that primarily benefits martials who dip.
It's the only thing that makes certain feats worthwhile, too. If cantrips don't scale with level, Magic Adept or Spell Sniper are hardly worth considering.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Your attacks scale with level as your proficiency bonus scales and the scaling is common for all weapon attacks for all classes. Additionally the damage is the same for all weapons at all levels unless you are playing a Monk, meaning there is no scaling on weapon damage.
If you abstract to considering proficiency bonus scaling sure, but that was obviously not the thing being discussed if you read the rest of the post you partially quoted.
Extra Attack is a specific class ability (or in some cases a subclass ability) not a core mechanic like the weapons themselves or the cantrips.
Yes... that was why you were able to quoter the words "you can not get extra attack or some other fifth level clsss feature as any level feat." from my post
Someone who takes a 5 level dip in a class that gets extra attack can use that all the way up to level 20 and their attack rolls scale the same as if they kept taking martial levels.
five levels is a dramatic cost compared to options like a first level feat or "I'm an elf"
 

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