D&D 5E Polymorph is a bad de-buff spell

[iserith]

It's no fun to keep playing with somebody who repeatedly brings down the mood. That goes for both sides, majority wins. Irreconcilable differences.

Sure, I agree. The questions that remain, for me, are: What is it exactly that is bringing down the mood? Why? What is a good solution for resolving that, given the group's goals?

For my part, I would say judging others' motivations for their otherwise reasonable actions in context is the source of the problem to begin with and that people can take personal responsibility to make sure this is not an issue. (In the business, we call that "Minding your own business.") Then they never have to bother with trying to change someone else's behavior, since they have no control over that anyway. Then the DM can take steps on his or her side of the table to disincentivize "metagaming" (in the sense that some have defined it here) by presenting things a certain way.

There is also the matter of understanding roleplaying and metagame thinking in the way the game actually defines it, rather than what we think it means based on legacy definitions or things we picked up from other games or longstanding group cultures. Once that's internalized, everything falls right into place and by adopting this approach, "metagaming" just goes away entirely. (Another side benefit is that this approach is portable - it doesn't matter whose game I join, I'll never be bothered by "metagaming.")

 

[Daniel Van Patten]

I would say judging others' motivations for their otherwise reasonable actions in context is the source of the problem to begin with and that people can take personal responsibility to make sure this is not an issue. (In the business, we call that "Minding your own business.") Then they never have to bother with trying to change someone else's behavior, since they have no control over that anyway. Then the DM can take steps on his or her side of the table to disincentivize "metagaming" (in the sense that some have defined it here) by presenting things a certain way.

We can take personal responsibility to not act on our emotions in a way that makes the game less fun for others. But it doesn't stop the feelings from happening, and drifting away from games that keep making us feel bad.

There is also the matter of understanding roleplaying and metagame thinking in the way the game actually defines it, rather than what we think it means based on legacy definitions or things we picked up from other games or longstanding group cultures. Once that's internalized, everything falls right into place and by adopting this approach, "metagaming" just goes away entirely. (Another side benefit is that this approach is portable - it doesn't matter whose game I join, I'll never be bothered by "metagaming.")

Once you normalize anything, things fall right into place. It looks like you are trying to steer people away from their normal, to start using your normal. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose. But I'm not sure people are going to see the benefits you claim, at the very least because we'll get kicked out of groups for pushing the idea. Like third party voting.

 

[Maxperson]

[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - if you're just getting started on this thread, you might want to read it the whole way through before responding as you have a lot of catching up to do.

Wow. I didn't realize the thread was that long when I posted, so I skipped ahead to page 12 and started reading from there. It appears that nothing has really changed. People still have an issue with how the toad(or in some cases now, frog) jumps being metagaming, so my response was still relevant. Go me!

 

[iserith]

Wow. I didn't realize the thread was that long when I posted, so I skipped ahead to page 12 and started reading from there. It appears that nothing has really changed. People still have an issue with how the toad(or in some cases now, frog) jumps being metagaming, so my response was still relevant. Go me!

Okay, good, I was totally expecting to come back to my desk and find replies to a dozen replies from posts many pages ago that I had already addressed.

 

[iserith]

We can take personal responsibility to not act on our emotions in a way that makes the game less fun for others. But it doesn't stop the feelings from happening, and drifting away from games that keep making us feel bad.

Could you go into what feelings you actually have when someone "metagames" in a way you don't like?

And as far as stopping those feelings from happening, that just requires a restructuring of one's understanding of roleplaying and metagame thinking in my experience.

Once you normalize anything, things fall right into place. It looks like you are trying to steer people away from their normal, to start using your normal. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose. But I'm not sure people are going to see the benefits you claim, at the very least because we'll get kicked out of groups for pushing the idea. Like third party voting.

Change is hard. I experienced it personally as more than half my gaming life was with a disdain for "metagaming." But the benefits of letting that go greatly outweighed the difficulty of the change.

 

[Maxperson]

Okay, good, I was totally expecting to come back to my desk and find replies to a dozen replies from posts many pages ago that I had already addressed.

You were saved by my having to run out and get my son from school. I probably wouldn't have have noticed your reply had I just kept going through that first page.

 

[Daniel Van Patten]

Could you go into what feelings you actually have when someone "metagames" in a way you don't like?

A general sense that the story is no longer sincere or genuine. Like when you read a story and realize the author is preaching his personal beliefs. Or lucid dreaming, when you change the dream but discover using that power makes the changes feel meaningless. Loss and disconnect.

And as far as stopping those feelings from happening, that just requires a restructuring of one's understanding of roleplaying and metagame thinking in my experience.

That's a horrible thing. Orwellian.

 

[iserith]

A general sense that the story is no longer sincere or genuine. Like when you read a story and realize the author is preaching his personal beliefs. Or lucid dreaming, when you change the dream but discover using that power makes the changes feel meaningless. Loss and disconnect.

What would you say makes it less sincere or genuine to you?

That's a horrible thing. Orwellian.

Why horrible? If you think "metagaming" makes the story no longer sincere or genuine and you experience loss and disconnect, then reworking your understanding of the concept such that "metagaming" is no longer a concern in any game would be of benefit, right?

 

[Hussar]

In part, that's so posters have an opportunity to explain themselves and see where their arguments are not as strong as they could be or where they might discover inconsistencies or flaws.

See, there's the issue. You presume that there are inconsistencies or flaws to be discovered while insisting that your own position is unassailable. That your behavior would actively hurt someone else's enjoyment of the game isn't, apparently, an issue for you. You insist that that someone else MUST accept your behavior.

I simply do not.

As advice for our hypothetical new gamer at our table, it would be this:

Learn the preferences and playstyles of the table and act accordingly. Do not try to force your play style onto the group. If you think something might work better, feel free to discuss it, but, accept that your ideas might not be accepted by the group. If you feel that it is too much to ask that you respect the play styles of your fellow players at the table, then perhaps this table is not for you.​

 

[Daniel Van Patten]

What would you say makes it less sincere or genuine to you?

That the player is no longer making a good faith attempt to be in the character's headspace.

Why horrible? If you think "metagaming" makes the story no longer sincere or genuine and you experience loss and disconnect, then reworking your understanding of the concept such that "metagaming" is no longer a concern in any game would be of benefit, right?

That's the same as telling someone to rework their concept of love so they no longer feel heartbroken when a partner cheats on them. It's certainly possible, but takes years or decades to undo socialized responses. Also, it's a slap in the face to anyone who just got cheated on. So, not very popular.