Polymorph Other 3.0 The Final Thread

[Rashak Mani]

OK I just read 90% of the polymorph threads I could find with my "search" engine. (Alphabetic ordering of thread titles). I still have doubts and some fine tuning in regard to the spell. I am basing myself in the "final" 3.0 Polymorph Other version of the Tome and Blood.

1. Darkvision is a natural ability ? Nowhere is this specified. (Low light was defined.) For example if I poly into a Troglodyte I get 90' vision ?

2. Another thread mentioned that Undead are immune to Fort Saves if the spell doesn't include objects. So why the hell did they mention undeads in the T&B version ?! Undead are in fact immune to polymorph other ?

3. Just to make sure I got the stuff right: If my paltry Sorceror turns himself into a troll what do I gain ?
My guess => +7 Natural Armor, 23 Str, 14 Dex, 23 Con BAB same as before. Darkvision 90'. What about gaining rend... is it a "natural" attack ?

4. Another example... I transform a Mindflayer into a Fish.
a - His only supernatural ability is Telepathy, which he loses.
b - He is drowning correct ?
c - He cannot speak... so can he do Charm Monster ? Suggestion is impossible for sure.
d - He is a fish that can still mindblast, planeshift and levitate right ?
e - If he planeshifts... he still "drowns" in another plane no ?

5. Any errata on Damage Reduction being Supernatural ? PO can take away DR !

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Adapted Rule Area

6. I think its an unbalanced spell as do most threads. I don't want my DM to ban it outright... what are the most reasonable limitations and house rulings you guys have done to control PolyOther abuse ? What are the weak points of the spell that "balance" it that I might use to argue my case ?

7. Its not mentioned in the T&B version... but do many people use the "reverts to original form" when creature dies ?
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Suggestions and Tactics Area (Note I am a 13th lvl Sorceror - Human)

8. What are the best ways to "kill" or incapacitate various creatures ? The one I thought was transforming them into aquatic creatures that eventually "drown." Other forms that can stop Spell like abilities ?

9. Any stories about dumb PO choices ? Making the enemy more dangerous... or he that he could escape more easily ?

10. Any neat tactics that can be used with PO ? I have a druid in the group... I could make her into way more dangerous cretures... Umber Hulk for burrowing for example. Any others ?

11. List what are the best forms for a spellcaster to use. I don't want to wade into combat myself. I want suggestions for medium size creatures that can still cast spells as well as large ones.

Thanks... and sorry for bringing this much debated on spell....

 

[KarinsDad]

1. Darkvision is a natural ability ? Nowhere is this specified. (Low light was defined.) For example if I poly into a Troglodyte I get 90' vision ?

Literally, you do not. Darkvision is an extraordinary ability and you do not get extraordinary abilities. However, the example of Low Light Vision might allow a given DM to allow it as a natural ability.

2. Another thread mentioned that Undead are immune to Fort Saves if the spell doesn't include objects. So why the hell did they mention undeads in the T&B version ?! Undead are in fact immune to polymorph other ?

No. Polymorph Other (T&B) explicitly states that Undead can be polymorphed into other Undead. This is a property of the spell and overrides the general rule.

3. Just to make sure I got the stuff right: If my paltry Sorceror turns himself into a troll what do I gain ?
My guess => +7 Natural Armor, 23 Str, 14 Dex, 23 Con BAB same as before. Darkvision 90'. What about gaining rend... is it a "natural" attack ?

Darkvision and Rend are extraordinary abilities, so you do not get them.

4. Another example... I transform a Mindflayer into a Fish.
a - His only supernatural ability is Telepathy, which he loses.
b - He is drowning correct ?
c - He cannot speak... so can he do Charm Monster ? Suggestion is impossible for sure.
d - He is a fish that can still mindblast, planeshift and levitate right ?
e - If he planeshifts... he still "drowns" in another plane no ?

He is drowning, but he could planeshift to a plane of elemental water.

When polymorphed, creatures lose their own physical and natural abilities and replace them with the new ones. They do not gain extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural abilities, but then again, they do not lose their own extraordinary or spell-like abilities either (they do lose their supernatural abilities). If the original abilities required certain types of body parts (mouth, hands, etc.) to do certain abilities, then they lose those abilities if those parts do not exist. So, if the Charm Monster required a mouth to cast, then it loses it. If not, it does not.

5. Any errata on Damage Reduction being Supernatural ? PO can take away DR !

Damage Reduction is supernatural, so PO takes it away.

 

[FrankTrollman]

1. Polymorph gives "natural" abilities. Natural Abilities are not defined in 3rd edition and are not normally marked in the Monster Manual nor in any other Monster books. Natural Abilities are generally listed as Extraordinary abilities because that's the only possible non-magical ability designation in the Core Rules.

However, the following abilities are listed as "Natural" in the 3rd edition core rules (although of course, this is in text, as there is no "Na:" tag for them to have):

* Constrict
* Low-light Vision
* Rake
* Aboleth's ability to gain every memory of every creature they eat.
* Beholder's Flight ability.
* Marilith's ability to fight with all weapons without penalty.
* The Invisible Stalker's, Pixie's, and Will-o-Wisp's invisibility

Your DM is free to announce that any particular ability is or is not a "natural" ability based on those examples. Since there is no rhyme or reason apparent to the listed natural abilities (especially the Aboleth one, which seems psuedo magical at best) - your DM would be well within his rights to extrapolate absolutely anything from that.

2. Because Undead can Polymorph Self. That has no Save, and uses the same rules. Also, because gramatically it is easier to include Undead in the restricted list than to make a separate list just to tell you that you can't become an Undead form and then put in a rider in the Polymorph Self spell allowing you to become an Undead form if you already have one.

3. Rend either applies or does not apply depending upon DM whim. Sorry, but it's a spell that calls upon segregation based upon a designation which does not exist - so that's the best answer you are going to get. Most people seem to consider Rend to be similar to Rake enough to grant it - but a DM would be within his rights to disallow it.


4.

Another example... I transform a Mindflayer into a Fish.
a - His only supernatural ability is Telepathy, which he loses.

Sort of. Skip Williams made a rant about "non-physical supernatural abilities" staying. So the Mindflayer might keep the Telepathy, depending upon whether your DM was willing to take a Skipism over the actual wording of the spell.

b - He is drowning correct ?

Correct.

c - He cannot speak... so can he do Charm Monster ? Suggestion is impossible for sure.

He sure can! Remember that these are spell-like abilities, and have no components. So the Mind Flayer can use his Charm Monster all he wants - which would at least get people to put him in a glass of water.

d - He is a fish that can still mindblast, planeshift and levitate right ?

Right.

e - If he planeshifts... he still "drowns" in another plane no ?

Planeshift puts you somewhere stable within 500 miles of your target destination. Once he's a Fish, that's always going to be in a body of water - or oil - or whatever. So he's probably going into a lake where he can breathe just fine.

5. DR is normally Supernatural. Yes, unless the creature has specific (Ex) DR (such as a barbarian or Epic Creature), he will lose DR if polymorphed or while in an antimagic field.

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6. I prefer allowing it to be a disguise spell that lets you look however you want and gives you a set of specific bonuses to your stats.

7. I think everybody uses "reverts to orginal form when dies". After all, at that point your entire body has been separated from "you" - which pretty much means your entire body reverts.

8. The best forms for stopping Spell-like abilities are blind ones - especially if your DM is not keen on allowing Blindsight to transfer. Remember that a blinded creature cannot use any targetted effects (such as the afforementioned Charm Monster). So cave fish are just about the best offensive form ever - blind, slow, weak, and incapable of breathing air.

9. I saw someone transformed into a turtle - while he still had a fly spell. Gamera!

10. Girallon. OMG, that's so insane.

11. Pixie. You get the invis, and the flight.

-Frank

 

[Rashak Mani]

10. Girallon. OMG, that's so insane.

11. Pixie. You get the invis, and the flight.

-Frank

I thought you coudn't gain extra attacks from extra limbs... So I'd rather take the Troll with a bit more AC or a Hag....

Pixie has natural invis... but its listed as Supernatural... so PO takes it away. Still the Invisible Stalker has the same situation... kind of silly actually.

I did love the Cave Fish thingy... will think of some more blind creatures.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Pixie has natural invis... but its listed as Supernatural... so PO takes it away. Still the Invisible Stalker has the same situation... kind of silly actually.

Well no. Polymorph does not prevent you from getting any Supernatural Abilities (for example, you still get all the Supernatural Abilities from your class levels or magic items while polymorphed). It just doesn't give you any.

Polymorph does however, give you all Natural Abilities. Not just Natural Extraordinary abilities, all of them. So if you have a creature with an extraordinary ability marked "natural" - you get it. If you have a Spell-like ability marked "natural" - you get it. And finally, if you find a Supernatural ability marked "natural" - you get that too.

But you need Polymorph Any Object in order to transform into an Invisible Stalker - it is an Elemental.

-Frank

 

[Rashak Mani]

Polymorph does however, give you all Natural Abilities. Not just Natural Extraordinary abilities, all of them. So if you have a creature with an extraordinary ability marked "natural" - you get it. If you have a Spell-like ability marked "natural" - you get it. And finally, if you find a Supernatural ability marked "natural" - you get that too.

But you need Polymorph Any Object in order to transform into an Invisible Stalker - it is an Elemental. -Frank

Oh... ok. Got it. Soon I will reach 10th lvl of Elemental Savant... and I will be able to transform into other elementals...

 

[KarinsDad]

Well no. Polymorph does not prevent you from getting any Supernatural Abilities (for example, you still get all the Supernatural Abilities from your class levels or magic items while polymorphed). It just doesn't give you any.

Polymorph Other does not allow for any Supernatural abiliites in the polymorphed form at all.

If the original form previously had supernatural abilities, he loses them once polymorphed.

If the form to be polymorphed into has supernatural abilities, he does not gain any of them once polymorphed.

So PO does take away the invisibility of a pixie changed into a human and does not give it to a human changed into a pixie.

Polymorph does however, give you all Natural Abilities. Not just Natural Extraordinary abilities, all of them. So if you have a creature with an extraordinary ability marked "natural" - you get it.

If you have a Spell-like ability marked "natural" - you get it. And finally, if you find a Supernatural ability marked "natural" - you get that too.

Nope. Don't get these either.

PO explicitly states that you do not get extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural abilities. It does not explicitly state that you get any EX, SL, or SU ability if it has the word natural in front of it.

Pixie Invisibility is still a magical supernatural effect and still gets suppressed by spells like Antimagic Field. It is not "natural" in the sense that PO talks about natural abilities, regardless of the phrase "natural invisibility".

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well no. Polymorph does not prevent you from getting any Supernatural Abilities (for example, you still get all the Supernatural Abilities from your class levels or magic items while polymorphed).

Source?

I'm not sure how to reconcile that with "The subject retains its own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spelllike abilities, but not its supernatural abilities."

For example, I've always played that a wizard's Empathic Link [Su] with his familiar is severed while he's polymorphed...

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Source?

Skip Williams said that you could still Turn Undead while you were polymorphed.

I'm not sure how to reconcile that with "The subject retains its own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spelllike abilities, but not its supernatural abilities."

Skip Williams did it like this:

When you have a class, it constantly grants you whatever bonuses it provides. So while you lose the Turn Undead ability when the spell is cast - you don't lose the Cleric levels and you thus imediately get the ability to Turn Undead.

Similarly, when you have a strength of 12 and a +4 bonus from bull's strength and then you Polymorph into a Troll - your strength is 23. But then your strength immediately rises to 27 because the separate effect that grants a +4 bonus is not removed even though the strength is momentarily superceded.

That's Skip Williams, and it does make sense - much more so than his pathetic hand waiving about natural abilities.

For example, I've always played that a wizard's Empathic Link [Su] with his familiar is severed while he's polymorphed...

You're welcome to play that way - but the author's have said that they never intended that to happen.

That's why, for example, there is all that weird crap about "class granted abilities" in 3.5: They never intended Polymorph to gank peoples' class features; and they completely suck at writing comprehensible rules with regards to Polymorph.

And of course, Karinsdad's response is in turn simply not worth the time in responding to.

-Frank

 

[KarinsDad]

And of course, Karinsdad's response is in turn simply not worth the time in responding to.

That's because you are incapable of doing so in a rational manner which would get people to agree with you.

We understand Frank.

Come back when you are ready to play with the big boys though.