Power Attack Woes :(

[Felon]

However, I would point out again that this is only one example. A character optimised for two-handed combat (using a greatsword) won't have spent all those feats on two-weapon combat, and won't have spent as much money on boosting his primary weapon. How much of a difference that makes is uncertain.

Second, it costs the two-weapon user a feat, and he's already using a feat heavy build. You have to give the two-handed fighting character another feat to compensate, and that will probably offset any benefit the double-weapon guy gets from Power Attack, and may very well tip the balance back in the Two-Handed fighter's favor.

There's no doubt that 2-handers have the lowest "start-up cost". That's why it's ideal for low-level characters. That's OK IMO. Some builds are more complicated than others. Note that there are other feats the TWF can take. Oversized TWF (from CV) would make two longswords effective. Throw in EWF and make that two bastard swords. Now power attack your heart out at 1d10 apiece.

Folks can bandy about terms like "feat-sink" or "min-maxing", but the feats invested make an effective combatant, and If that's not what they're for, then what is the point of being a Fighter 20 with a pile of feats?

You get the small benefit (which you noted) of occassionally being able to use Power Attack using the double sword as a two-handed weapon, but then you lose all the benefit of the Two-Weapon fighting style, nullifying much of what allows you to keep up.

I think his point was that you can't always use TWF. There are feats like Dual Strike (CV) and Double Hit (MH), but if you don't have those, then wielding a two-bladed sward two-handed is a good way to go.

 

[frisbeet]

...(I hope that's legible. Also, I hope it's correct. )...

I applaud your effort in calculation, but these numbers aren't correct. I do however agree the Barb20 vs. TWF F20 isn't a close comparison on TWF vs. THF+PA, though this whole TWF thing is quite a sidebar to the thread topic...except that it leads to an answer...

Anyway, here's the correct #s for the Fighter 20 example.

Str 29
Dex 19

Feats as above. Wields two-bladed sword. Blade 1 is +5 Speed Shock; Blade 2 is +5 Flaming Frost (an interesting combo).

THF with blade 1 has the attack bonus progression:

+36/+36/+31/+26/+21

That's 20 (BAB) +9 (Str) +2 (WF, gWF), +5 (Weapon), with the extra full BAB attack from the Speed enchantment.

Average damage/normal hit = 30

That's 4.5 (sword) +13 (Str) +4 (WS, gWS) +5 (sword enchant) +3.5 (sword xtra)

Average damage/crit hit = 56.5 (sword xtra not doubled)

TWF with both blades has the AB progression:

blade1
+34/+34/+29/+24/+19

Average damage/normal hit = 26

That's 4.5 (sword) +9 (Str) +4 (WS, gWS) +5 (sword enchant) +3.5 (sword xtra)

Average damage/crit hit = 48.5

blade2
+34/+29/+24

Average damage/normal hit = 24.5

That's 4.5 (sword) +4 (Str) +4 (WS, gWS) +5 (sword enchant) +7 (sword xtra)

Average damage/crit hit = 42

Math check

Suppose blade1 is wielded THF-style, and your opponent's AC is 30. Turns out the best PA to go with is 7, not zero! How did I get 7? Well, here's the average full attack damage/round against AC 30, PA 0 (no DR).

[(15/20 + 4/20*1/20)*30 + (4/20*19/20)*56.5] x 3 for the +36/+36/+31 attacks

plus

(13/20 + 4/20*3/20)*30 + (4/20*17/20)*56.5 for the +26 attack

plus

(8/20 + 4/20*8/20)*30 + (4/20*12/20)*56.5 for the +21 attack

boop beep beep boop boop...

answer = 151.79


Now, what if you PA-ed for 7?

AB progression = +29/+29/+24/+19/+14

blade1 normal D = 30 + 7*2 = 44
blade1 crid D = 84.5

<full attack D, 30 AC> =

[(15/20 + 4/20*1/20)*44 + (4/20*19/20)*84.5] x 2

+ (11/20 + 4/20*5/20)*44 + (4/20*15/20)*84.5

+ (6/20 + 4/20*10/20)*44 + (4/20*10/20)*84.5

+ (1/20 + 4/20*15/20)*44 + (4/20*5/20)*84.5

= 177.14

OK, clearly 177.14 > 151.79. So PA 7 better than PA 0. What about PA 6? or PA 8? or PA 20? This is where spreadsheets can help. Mine does every calculation, PA 0-20 (no epic levels, sorry), and is why it's so darn big. But it is exact. Turns out 7 gives the max damage. BTW, there is no complete analytic formula which generates the optimum PA values... you're much better off doing this tby brute force or by a more elegant dynamic program.

This is all presented to give the reader confidence that the numbers which follow are correct.

And here they are.

AC	THF	PA	THF+PA		TWF	PA	TWF+PA
10	167.7	20	358.2		224.7	16	303.5
11	167.7	20	349.9		224.7	15	298.1
12	167.7	20	341.5		224.7	14	292.7
13	167.7	20	333.2		224.7	13	287.3
14	167.7	19	323.6		224.7	12	281.9
15	167.7	18	314.0		224.7	11	276.5
16	167.7	17	304.4		224.7	10	271.1
17	167.7	16	294.8		224.7	9	265.7
18	167.7	15	285.2		224.7	8	260.3
19	167.7	14	275.6		224.7	7	254.9
20	167.7	13	266.0		224.7	7	249.6
21	167.7	12	256.4		224.7	6	244.3
22	167.7	11	246.8		223.2	6	239.1
23	167.7	11	237.5		221.6	5	234.0
24	165.9	10	228.3		220.1	5	228.9
25	164.1	10	219.4		218.6	4	223.9
26	162.4	9	210.5		217.1	4	218.9
27	160.6	9	202.0		212.6	3	214.0
28	158.9	8	193.5		208.2	3	209.2
29	155.3	8	185.3		203.7	2	204.4
30	151.8	7	177.1		199.3	1	199.6
31	148.3	7	169.3		194.8	0	194.8
32	144.7	6	161.5		187.4	0	187.4
33	141.2	5	153.7		180.1	0	180.1
34	135.9	4	145.9		172.7	0	172.7
35	130.6	3	138.1		165.3	0	165.3
36	125.3	2	130.3		157.9	0	157.9
37	120.0	1	122.5		145.9	0	145.9
38	114.7	0	114.7		134.1	0	134.1
39	105.7	0	105.7		122.3	0	122.3
40	96.8	0	96.8		112.0	0	112.0
41	88.1	0	88.1		101.7	0	101.7
42	81.0	0	81.0		91.1	0	91.1
43	73.9	0	73.9		80.7	0	80.7
44	66.7	0	66.7		70.5	0	70.5
45	59.5	0	59.5		63.1	0	63.1
46	52.6	0	52.6		55.7	0	55.7
47	47.3	0	47.3		48.1	0	48.1
48	42.0	0	42.0		40.6	0	40.6
49	36.5	0	36.5		33.3	0	33.3
50	31.1	0	31.1		28.9	0	28.9

Comments:

1). Turns out you can power attack with a two bladed sword, even though the off-hand attack gains no benefit.

2). Turns out for low-mid AC for either style, you're better off PAing for at least a little.

3). A lot of analysis such as this has proven #2, and disproven the oft-stated myth that you should only PA, and then for max, when you can't hit an opponent except with a 20, or when your opponent clearly has no armor. That's bull.

4). Against ACs 24-47, this character is better off TWF.

5). Ergo, 2 for 1 THF PA trade-off not overpowered.

edit: once again, free spreadsheet found on the site linked in the signature of my 1st post above

 

[I'm A Banana]

No, IME, they (AC's) plateau in the mid thirties to low forties.

Which, really, is exactly where they should plateau, given that a 20th level fighter can hit an AC of 40 50% of the time (ish), giving them slightly better odds than your average 1st level Fighter to hit AC's at 1st level (which, IMHO, tends to be the biggest AC-jacking level of them all...when else do your characters gain 8 points of AC in one level?!).

 

[Storm Raven]

There's no doubt that 2-handers have the lowest "start-up cost". That's why it's ideal for low-level characters. That's OK IMO. Some builds are more complicated than others. Note that there are other feats the TWF can take. Oversized TWF (from CV) would make two longswords effective. Throw in EWF and make that two bastard swords. Now power attack your heart out at 1d10 apiece.

CV?

Sure, and now you are talking about another feat.

Folks can bandy about terms like "feat-sink" or "min-maxing", but the feats invested make an effective combatant, and If that's not what they're for, then what is the point of being a Fighter 20 with a pile of feats?

Yes, but to fairly compare the two, you have to match up numbers of feats. Every feat that the TWF spends to "catch-up" with the THF is one more feat that the THF can use to diversify his abilities, or beef up his own capabilities. Comparing one build with (for example) seven feats, and another with four is an unfair comparison. Also, just comparing 20th level Fighters isn't very valuable - you have to look at them as they progress, the TWF goes through some fairly long periods while he is accumulating feats to bring himself "up to par" with his THF/PA counterpart.

I think his point was that you can't always use TWF. There are feats like Dual Strike (CV) and Double Hit (MH), but if you don't have those, then wielding a two-bladed sward two-handed is a good way to go.

It is, but it is a relatively limited use. The THF gets the benefit of PA most of the time, the TWF probably less than half of the time. The TWF burns a feat and gets less than half the benefit, and that doesn't seem to me like a good comparison, unless you give the TWF more feats.

 

[delericho]

I applaud your effort in calculation, but these numbers aren't correct.

Yep, I failed to add up the bonuses to damage correctly (think I left off the weapon's own damage), and erroneously doubled the energy damage on a critical. I have edited my post with corrected numbers.

Anyway, here's the correct #s for the Fighter 20 example.

Str 29
Dex 19

Note that my example above had a strength of 26, explaining the difference between your revised numbers and the numbers I've now put in place above.

Comments:

1). Turns out you can power attack with a two bladed sword, even though the off-hand attack gains no benefit.

2). Turns out for low-mid AC for either style, you're better off PAing for at least a little.

3). A lot of analysis such as this has proven #2, and disproven the oft-stated myth that you should only PA, and then for max, when you can't hit an opponent except with a 20, or when your opponent clearly has no armor. That's bull.

4). Against ACs 24-47, this character is better off TWF.

5). Ergo, 2 for 1 THF PA trade-off not overpowered.

edit: once again, free spreadsheet found on the site linked in the signature of my 1st post above

I agree with all of the above. Oh, and thanks for the spreadsheet.

One other thing I am rather concerned about, and that has been mentioned already, is that the shield user really suffers. Especially since the Animated shield is only a +2 bonus. But that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

CV?
Sure, and now you are talking about another feat.

True, but Oversized Two Weapon Fighting changes the basic assumptions of the comparison and it's important to consider in any game that allows it.

If you use Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, you can get some interesting combos that may actually work better than the double sword. For instance, dual dwarven waraxe increases base damage by one point on each hand and doesn't cost an extra feat for dwarves (oversized two weapon fighting substitutes for exotic weapon proficiency). Oversized two weapon fighting also changes the power attack damage equation. A character fighting with two one-handed weapons gets to add power attack on both weapons resulting in as good a deal as two-handed power attack on a full attack. Similarly, oversized two weapon fighting can get serious benefits from enlarge person (if the character has enough dex to keep using his two weapon fighting feats with the -2 dex). 1d10 goes to 2d8 for an increase of 3.5 points of damage per attack--roughly double the benefit derived by two handed weapon wielders (who typically go from 2d6 or 1d12 to 3d6).