Power Attack Woes :(

[Staffan]

If they printed them, I put a pile of "sword & board" oriented feats into Five Nations. Breland is just plain too warm to always be running around in heavy plate, so I tried to present them as being much more skillful in their shield use to keep alive .

Sweet! Like I needed more reasons to buy Five Nations when it gets released

 

[delericho]

Let’s see some numbers. Here’s the average full attack damage/round for 3 core (for simplicity) characters. They aren’t exactly equal because apples-to-apples comparisons, even hypothetical, are impossible in the D&D context (and idiotic).

Character1
Barbarian 20
Str 40 (16 lvl 1, +5 lvl, +6 magic, +5 inherent (wish, manual, etc.), +8 raging)
Dex 16 (16 lvl 1)
Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Critical (Falchion), and Power Attack
Weapon (+10): +5 Speed Flaming Shock Fachion
Partial equipment value: 373875 gp (200375 (weapon), 137500 (manual), 36000 (belt))

Character2
Fighter20
Str 28 (16 lvl 1, +1 lvl, +6 magic, +5 inherent (wish, manual, etc.))
Dex 20 (16 lvl 1, +4 lvl)
Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Improved Critical (Short Sword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon1 (+10):
+5 Speed Flaming Shock Short Sword
Weapon2 (+8):
+5 Flaming Frost Shock Short Sword
Partial equipment value: 502120 gp (328620 (weapons), 137500 (manual), 36000 (belt))

If you want to compare the effectiveness of power attack versus two-weapon fighting, it's absurd to do so by comparing two such wildly different characters. You should at least be comparing two characters of Fighter level 20.

As it is, you're comparing the optimal PA build with a sub-optimal TWF build (if nothing else, the barbarian's rage is skewing the results greatly, and the two-weapon fighter should be using a two-bladed sword - and that's not even considering the vorpal/sneak attack possibility you mention in your post). Furthermore, assuming that the PA barbarian knows the AC of his opponent, and so is able to optimise his attack is rather odd.

While I presume to already know the answer, the numbers will speak for themselves.

This is a dangerous position to take. If you think you already know the answer, can you really be sure that the result you get isn't influenced by your desire to be right?

 

[swordsmasher]

Thanks

wow, thank you for all the input everyone!

Anyway, I after reading everyone's posts I went back and re-evaluated my campaign and found my major problem. i was using the Armor as DR from Unearthed Arcana as well as the class defense bonus and the vitality/wound point system all together. what i was getting was low ac bad guys who were being mopped up easily. so i threw those out the window and went back to core. it worked out much better. he hit about 30% of the time power attacking at 7 (low die rolls for him tonight).

so the flaw was not in the PA feat but in the combination of variant rules i had going for me.

thanx again for all your help.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Yeah. UA Armor as DR really breaks down with 3.5 power attack. In general, you lose half the armor bonus and get 1/1 DR. So fullplate loses four points of AC and gains DR 4. Which is fine, except that a guy with a two handed weapon can power attack for four points, deal 8 points of damage and hit just as often as before... but now he deals 4 more points of damage per hit (after DR is taken into account). UA Armor as DR rather dramatically increases the damage from two handed power attacking characters... or anything else that increases power attack damage.

wow, thank you for all the input everyone!

Anyway, I after reading everyone's posts I went back and re-evaluated my campaign and found my major problem. i was using the Armor as DR from Unearthed Arcana as well as the class defense bonus and the vitality/wound point system all together. what i was getting was low ac bad guys who were being mopped up easily. so i threw those out the window and went back to core. it worked out much better. he hit about 30% of the time power attacking at 7 (low die rolls for him tonight).

so the flaw was not in the PA feat but in the combination of variant rules i had going for me.

thanx again for all your help.

 

[Felon]

If you want to compare the effectiveness of power attack versus two-weapon fighting, it's absurd to do so by comparing two such wildly different characters. You should at least be comparing two characters of Fighter level 20. As it is, you're comparing the optimal PA build with a sub-optimal TWF build (if nothing else, the barbarian's rage is skewing the results greatly, and the two-weapon fighter should be using a two-bladed sword

Well-said. You beat me to the punch. Making one a barbarian and the other a fighter drags the whole "barb-is-broken" arguement into this. And even without the greater rage, he gave the barb a 4-point Str edge. Pretty skewed.

 

[Storm Raven]

And even without the greater rage, he gave the barb a 4-point Str edge. Pretty skewed.

Conversely, he gave the Fighter a 4 point Dex edge, so he could qualify for his high level TWF feats.

 

[delericho]

Conversely, he gave the Fighter a 4 point Dex edge, so he could qualify for his high level TWF feats.

True, but he would have been better placed to construct the character with a +4 inherent bonus to Str (4 wishes instead of 5), and Gloves of Dexterity +4 to get that Dex of 20. The remaining +4 ability bonuses for level can then be assigned to Strength, for a Str of 31 and a Dex of 20.

He also did not take into account the possibility of the two-weapon fighter using power attack (granted, you can't with a short sword). Usually, with a two-bladed sword, I expect you're better off not using it, since you take the penalties for the 'off-hand' side, and gain no benefit, but against very low AC opponents, it probably is worthwhile, at least to a certain extent.

And then there's the possibility of using two long swords, where power attack is even more appropriate. Then, of course, there's a -4 penalty with each hand to consider, but that's also less important with low-AC opponents.

(Actually, the most versatile build is probably the two-bladed sword user with power attack. When it's appropriate, he should use power attack, weilding his weapon as a two-handed weapon. At other times, he should use his weapon as a two-weapon fighter. Granted, the two-bladed sword does less damage than a greatsword, but only by 2.5 points per hit, which is trivial for a 20th level fighter.)

 

[delericho]

A different analysis

If we build a Fighter20 who uses the two-bladed sword as his weapon of choice, we should be able to get a good analysis of the relative strengths and weaknesses of two-weapon versus two-handed fighting, since this same character is capable of both. Now, it's worth noting that such a character will necessarily have spent all the money and feats on buffing up his two-weapon style, which the two-handed specialist will have spent those same feats on something else, so it's not a perfect comparison. Still, it's probably not too bad.

So, here's the test character I propose to use:

Fighter 20.
Str 26 (15 start, +5 level, +6 item)
Dex 19 (13 start, +6 item)

Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Spec, Improved Critical (two-bladed sword), Power Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Two-weapon Fighting

Weapon of Choice: Two-bladed sword. (+5 Speed Shock/+5 Flaming Frost) (I assumed the character would spend about 33% of his starting funds on his primary weapon, and this weapon reflects that. I think the exact value of the weapon is 260,700gp.)

Two-handed use: +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 on attack rolls, 24 average damage.

Two-weapon Use: +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 on attack rolls, 20 average damage and +33/+28/+23 on attack rolls, 20.5 average damage.

Assuming the character knows the AC of his opponent (which is a poor assumption, I know), and so can optimise his power attack, we get the following:

AC THF PA DMG TWF PA DMG DMG WINNER
10 20 344.82 15 292.65 344.82 THF
11 20 366.61 14 287.25 366.61 THF
12 20 328.4 13 281.85 328.4 THF
13 19 318.8 12 276.45 318.8 THF
14 18 309.2 11 271.05 309.2 THF
15 17 299.6 10 265.65 299.6 THF
16 16 290 9 260.25 290 THF
17 15 280.4 8 254.85 280.4 THF
18 14 270.8 8 249.56 270.8 THF
19 13 261.2 7 244.28 261.2 THF
20 12 251.6 7 239.11 251.6 THF
21 12 242.165 6 233.95 242.165 THF
22 11 232.925 6 228.9 232.925 THF
23 11 223.85 5 223.86 223.86 TWF
24 10 214.97 5 218.93 218.93 TWF
25 10 206.255 4 214.01 214.01 TWF
26 9 197.735 4 209.2 209.2 TWF
27 9 189.38 3 204.4 204.4 TWF
28 8 181.22 2 199.6 199.6 TWF
29 8 173.225 1 194.8 194.8 TWF
30 7 165.425 0 190 190 TWF
31 6 157.625 0 182.805 182.805 TWF
32 5 149.825 0 175.61 175.61 TWF
33 4 142.025 0 168.415 168.415 TWF
34 3 134.225 0 161.22 161.22 TWF
35 2 126.425 0 154.025 154.025 TWF
36 1 118.625 0 142.3388 142.3388 TWF
37 0 110.825 0 130.76 130.76 TWF
38 0 102.1088 0 119.2888 119.2888 TWF
39 0 93.52 0 109.2288 109.2288 TWF
40 0 85.05875 0 99.16875 99.16875 TWF
41 0 78.23875 0 88.81625 88.81625 TWF
42 0 71.41875 0 78.65875 78.65875 TWF
43 0 64.4075 0 68.69625 68.69625 TWF
44 0 57.52375 0 61.50125 61.50125 TWF
45 0 50.7675 0 54.30625 54.30625 TWF
46 0 45.6525 0 46.81875 46.81875 TWF
47 0 40.5375 0 39.52625 40.5375 THF
48 0 35.23125 0 32.42875 35.23125 THF
49 0 30.0525 0 28.09875 30.0525 THF
50 0 25.00125 0 23.76875 25.00125 THF
51 0 21.59125 0 18.985 21.59125 THF
52 0 18.18125 20 15.575 18.18125 THF
53 20 18.06875 20 15.575 18.06875 THF
54 20 18.06875 20 15.575 18.06875 THF
55+ 20 18.06875 20 15.575 18.06875 THF

(I hope that's legible. Also, I hope it's correct. )

As can be seen from the table, the 2-handed Power Attack mode of combat is superior for the extremely low and extremely high AC values. For the mid-range values, two-weapon combat is superior. Since you would expect those mid-range AC values to be the most commonly encountered, this suggests that two-weapon fighting is the way to go.

However, I would point out again that this is only one example. A character optimised for two-handed combat (using a greatsword) won't have spent all those feats on two-weapon combat, and won't have spent as much money on boosting his primary weapon. How much of a difference that makes is uncertain.

Edit: I have changed the numbers in the table above following a number of corrections. Basically, the damage values for the various attacks were incorrect, and I'd failed to take into account the fact that extra d6's for energy damage don't double on a critical hit. (And thanks to Frisbeet for pointing out the errors, and for his spreadsheet, which allowed me to check the revised numbers - they might still be wrong, but if so it's due to a copying error on my part.)

 

[Storm Raven]

(Actually, the most versatile build is probably the two-bladed sword user with power attack. When it's appropriate, he should use power attack, weilding his weapon as a two-handed weapon. At other times, he should use his weapon as a two-weapon fighter. Granted, the two-bladed sword does less damage than a greatsword, but only by 2.5 points per hit, which is trivial for a 20th level fighter.)

Well, you have two stumbling blocks here: the first, and most important, is that Power Attack isn't as good for the double weapon user as for the two-handed weapon user, since you fight with the double weapon as if you were wielding a one handed weapon and light weapon. So no doubling up in the bonus. You get the small benefit (which you noted) of occassionally being able to use Power Attack using the double sword as a two-handed weapon, but then you lose all the benefit of the Two-Weapon fighting style, nullifying much of what allows you to keep up.

Second, it costs the two-weapon user a feat, and he's already using a feat heavy build. You have to give the two-handed fighting character another feat to compensate, and that will probably offset any benefit the double-weapon guy gets from Power Attack, and may very well tip the balance back in the Two-Handed fighter's favor.

 

[WizarDru]

IME, each style has its strengths and weaknesses; sometimes the power-attacking zweihander is superior, sometimes the dirk-and-cutlass wins the day. The system is a tad more complex than pure damage might illustrate, and the power-attack feat results in some interesting trade-offs. It seems just fine, to me.