Power Attack Woes :(

[HeavyG]

I don't think that's a bad thing though. One thing that bothered me about late 2e was how common TWF was. There was really no reason not to fight with two weapons. Its a highly specialized style that takes a lot of training to pull off. As it should be.

I kinda agree with that, but I worry about the guy with a shield. Besides, you have to take rogues into account too. If you balanced TWF for fighters, then rogues are going to really love it.

That said, I'm playing a high level rogue right now and while I have 5 attacks per round (usually 6 via Haste) and I can pretty much sneak attack for +8d6 on every attack due to my Ring of Blinking, the party barbarian/dragon disciple still outdamages me. It's really incredible, the damage those things can dish out.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I kinda agree with that, but I worry about the guy with a shield. Besides, you have to take rogues into account too. If you balanced TWF for fighters, then rogues are going to really love it.

That said, I'm playing a high level rogue right now and while I have 5 attacks per round (usually 6 via Haste) and I can pretty much sneak attack for +8d6 on every attack due to my Ring of Blinking, the party barbarian/dragon disciple still outdamages me. It's really incredible, the damage those things can dish out.

I'm playing a Rog5/Asn10 at the moment, fighting with rapier and dagger. That's 4 attacks - not too shabby either. With the spells from Complete Adventurer, that means a lot of sneak attacking goodness. On the other hand, we don't have a real party tank, and I have to be careful as I couldn't take the damage I can dish out in a round.

 

[Darmanicus]

At the end of the day, however, it's pretty sad. Two-weapon fighting requies massive min/maxing, $ outlay for two weapons, feat upon feat -- all to keep up (in damage dealt) with a very un min-maxxed Fighter15 with a +5 greatsword and power attack.

And naturally, the Fighter15 is far less specialized, having not used up all those feats.

Plus, when you can't full attack, which is about 50% of the time (at least), the 2-weapon guy's damage output drops 75%. The greatsword user just charges and bumps up power attack.

Anyway, check out the rules forum, good stuff.

Why is it so sad!!!?

I'm sorry but whether in D&D or in the real world of course you're gonna pay 'twice' as much for two weapons than you are for one! Nothing sad about that, just common sense.

The same is going to go with the investment of skill into using 2 hands independantly rather than both combined. Only exceptional people have the ability to use both hands equally.

On the flip side if the 2 hander loses his weapon via disarm/sunder/disintegrate/telekinesis etc. then he's stuffed whereas at least the 2 weapon dude can fall back on his other weapon.

However I digress and don't mean to hijack this thread.

Dar out.

 

[Mista Collins]

The problem I am coming across is a barbarian character that doesn't have PA, or rather doesn't use it. He swings a two handed sword and would rather hit more often. Instead of hitting 60% of the time, he is hitting 85% of the time and cleaning up that way.

 

[S'mon]

And if the guy's got a shield with spikes and TWF, then he's not only got a nice AC bonus, but he can trade that in for a bash that will usualy afford a better damage-to-penalty ratio than the power-attacker's getting.

When you factor in the feats, I don't believe that at all. You may be forgetting that Cleave & Great Cleave are big force multipliers for the single attack that does lots of damage. My Ftr-5 with weapon Spec, 2h PA and Cleave is far better than other Ftr-5s with TWF, longsword & shortsword or longsword & shield.

 

[jgsugden]

A few notes:

1) The answer to power attack is *not* necessarily higher AC for enemies. That may just make thoe foes too hard to hit for other PCs.

Look at an 8th level half-orc barbarian (raged) with a 22 strength (raged to 26), weapon focus, a +3 two handed sword and power attack:

Base: +20/+15 (2d6+15/19X2)
Full PA: +12/+7 (2d6+31/19X2)

Now, look at an 8th level rogue with a 14 str, 20 dex, weapon finesse, weapon focus and a +3 rapier:

Base: +14/+9 (d6+5/18X2)

If you throw a monster at a party that is hard for the fighters to hit when full power attacking, it will be hard for the other PCs to hit as well. In other words, nerfing power attack by raising foes AC makes many PCs useless.

#2) Power attack is supposed to increase damage. It is supposed to make PCs hit harder. It is an assumed part of two handed combat in 3.5. Don't assume it is broken just because it is working.

#3) People are constantly comparing two weapon combat to two handed combat by comparing average damage expended. That is not the true test. The true test is the number of foes that can be dropped in a given period of time. PCs that use high degrees of power attack often waste a *lot* of the damage they deal by 'overshooting' the hit point total of their foes. As two handed fighters deal less damage, but spread it out over more attacks, they can end up dealing more 'effective' damage, as less of their total dealt is wasted.

 

[S'mon]

#3) People are constantly comparing two weapon combat to two handed combat by comparing average damage expended. That is not the true test. The true test is the number of foes that can be dropped in a given period of time. PCs that use high degrees of power attack often waste a *lot* of the damage they deal by 'overshooting' the hit point total of their foes. As two handed fighters deal less damage, but spread it out over more attacks, they can end up dealing more 'effective' damage, as less of their total dealt is wasted.

Conversely the TWFer Cleaves less often, and does less damage when he does Cleave.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As two handed fighters deal less damage, but spread it out over more attacks, they can end up dealing more 'effective' damage, as less of their total dealt is wasted.

But the TWFer "wastes" damage as he can't use his special ability much of the time, especially against opponents willing to move.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The problem I am coming across is a barbarian character that doesn't have PA, or rather doesn't use it. He swings a two handed sword and would rather hit more often. Instead of hitting 60% of the time, he is hitting 85% of the time and cleaning up that way.

Perfect example of how you can never please everyone

Look at an 8th level half-orc barbarian (raged) with a 22 strength (raged to 26), weapon focus, a +3 two handed sword and power attack:

Base: +20/+15 (2d6+15/19X2)
Full PA: +12/+7 (2d6+31/19X2)

Now, look at an 8th level rogue with a 14 str, 20 dex, weapon finesse, weapon focus and a +3 rapier:

Base: +14/+9 (d6+5/18X2)

If you throw a monster at a party that is hard for the fighters to hit when full power attacking, it will be hard for the other PCs to hit as well. In other words, nerfing power attack by raising foes AC makes many PCs useless.

There are some problems with that reasoning:
1) The rogue isn't supposed to hit as well as the barbarian, or else he had full BAB as well.

2) The rogue will not just walk up on an enemy and start chipping away with his dagger. He'll try to sneak up, flank, get invisible, or feint the hell out of his enemy, which improves his chances.

And, as a minor point, I think a combat-oriented rogue will try to get his strength as high as possible, too, so I think we ought to give him dex 22 (if we give str 22 to the barbarian). That isn't really relevant here.

 

[frisbeet]

some analysis

Let’s see some numbers. Here’s the average full attack damage/round for 3 core (for simplicity) characters. They aren’t exactly equal because apples-to-apples comparisons, even hypothetical, are impossible in the D&D context (and idiotic).

Character1
Barbarian 20
Str 40 (16 lvl 1, +5 lvl, +6 magic, +5 inherent (wish, manual, etc.), +8 raging)
Dex 16 (16 lvl 1)
Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Critical (Falchion), and Power Attack
Weapon (+10): +5 Speed Flaming Shock Fachion
Partial equipment value: 373875 gp (200375 (weapon), 137500 (manual), 36000 (belt))

Character2
Fighter20
Str 28 (16 lvl 1, +1 lvl, +6 magic, +5 inherent (wish, manual, etc.))
Dex 20 (16 lvl 1, +4 lvl)
Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Improved Critical (Short Sword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon1 (+10):
+5 Speed Flaming Shock Short Sword
Weapon2 (+8):
+5 Flaming Frost Shock Short Sword
Partial equipment value: 502120 gp (328620 (weapons), 137500 (manual), 36000 (belt))

Character3
Barbarian7
Str 23 (16 lvl 1, +1 lvl, +2 magic, +4 raging)
Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Falchion), Power Attack
Weapon (+1): +1 Fachion
Partial equipment value: 6375 gp (2375 (weapon), 4000 (gauntlets))

Here’s how they’d fare if only they knew their opponent’s AC. With such knowledge the two Barbarians could power attack for precisely the optimum PA maximizing average damage. This analysis takes into account critical hits and can be recapitulated with the power attack spreadsheet on my site (signature)—along with nearly any other character you can think up.

My point is three-fold:

1). Show that this analysis can be done, and with tools such as at my site, should be done to avoid sloppy, incomplete, and misleading analysis, and to provide an idea of the magnitude of things (average damage).

2). See how two core characters come out at high level. While I presume to already know the answer, the numbers will speak for themselves. What about other comparisons? Like with Dervish or Invisible Blade, etc.? This post doesn’t address such comparisons—but see the 1st point and do the assisted math yourself!

3). The thread topic: if you’re comfortable with the discrepancy between high level THF and high level TWF in 3.5, the uptick in PA efficacy from 3.0 should be a-ok. On the other hand, the high damage difference between Barb20 optimally Power Attacking (the "B20+PA" column below) and not PAing at all (the Brb20 column) or TWF (the TW20 column) is staggering at low-mid ACs. Truly it is a must tactic for pure damage optimizers. Optimizing effectiveness, however, doesn't always require maxing average damage, as has been pointed out. TWF with a couple vorpal weapons dripping with acid and a little sneak attack and you'll be fine. Anway, is PA3.5 too powerful? No. IMO. But I get the concern.

Finally, the spew:

AC	Brb20	PA	B20+PA		TW20		Brb7	PA	Brb7+PA
10	230.9	20	467.8		242.2		32.8	7	55.0
11	230.9	20	462.8		242.2		32.8	7	51.7
12	230.9	20	457.7		242.2		32.8	7	48.4
13	230.9	20	452.7		242.2		31.9	6	45.0
14	230.9	20	442.6		242.2		31.1	6	41.9
15	230.9	20	432.6		242.2		30.2	5	38.8
16	230.9	20	422.5		242.2		29.3	5	35.9
17	230.9	20	412.5		242.2		28.5	4	33.1
18	230.9	20	402.4		242.2		26.7	4	30.4
19	230.9	19	392.0		242.2		25.0	3	27.8
20	230.9	18	381.6		242.2		23.3	3	25.4
21	230.9	17	371.2		242.2		21.6	2	22.9
22	230.9	16	360.8		240.5		19.8	2	20.8
23	230.9	15	350.4		238.9		18.1	2	18.6
24	230.9	14	340.0		237.2		16.4	1	16.6
25	230.9	13	329.6		235.6		14.7	0	14.7
26	230.9	12	319.2		234.0		12.9	0	12.9
27	230.9	11	308.8		229.2		11.2	0	11.2
28	230.9	10	298.4		224.4		9.5	0	9.5
29	228.4	9	288.0		219.6		7.7	0	7.7
30	226.0	8	277.6		214.8		6.0	0	6.0
31	223.6	7	267.2		210.0		5.1	0	5.1
32	221.1	7	257.2		202.0		4.2	0	4.2
33	218.7	6	247.2		194.1		3.4	0	3.4
34	213.8	6	237.5		186.1		2.4	7	3.0
35	209.0	5	227.9		178.2		1.6	7	3.0
36	204.1	5	218.7		170.2		1.6	7	3.0
37	199.3	4	209.5		157.3		1.6	7	3.0
38	194.4	3	200.2		144.5		1.6	7	3.0
39	187.1	3	191.3		131.8		1.6	7	3.0
40	179.8	3	182.5		120.7		1.6	7	3.0
41	172.5	2	174.1		109.6		1.6	7	3.0
42	164.8	1	165.7		98.2		1.6	7	3.0
43	157.3	0	157.3		87.0		1.6	7	3.0
44	145.1	0	145.1		76.0		1.6	7	3.0
45	133.0	0	133.0		68.1		1.6	7	3.0
46	121.1	0	121.1		60.1		1.6	7	3.0
47	111.0	0	111.0		51.9		1.6	7	3.0
48	101.0	0	101.0		43.8		1.6	7	3.0
49	91.2	0	91.2		36.0		1.6	7	3.0
50	81.6	0	81.6		31.2		1.6	7	3.0

Edit: So like, the AC is your opponent's and the PA values listed are the ones which maximize damage, turning 194.4 to 200.2 PA-ing for 3 against AC38 with the Barb20, for example. Case that wasn't clear.