D&D 3E/3.5 Problems with 3.5 Power Attack?

[Darkness]

Mike:

I wasn't talking about the ogre 'commoner' in the MM; I was talking about ogres as in, the race.
Sorry that I wasn't clearer, mate.

- Say hello to medium-level ogre barbarians Darkness

 

[Adam Coath]

I don't have my book with me, but I'm pretty sure that when a character uses a double weapon to two-weapon fight they are no longer considered to be weilding a two-handed weapon, but rather a medium and a light weapon instead.

I think this is stated in the section where it describes how strength bonuses to damage are multiplied by 1.5 when a person uses a two-handed weapon.

Cheers,
Dan

Monk special weapons work slightly differently from two weapon fighting though. It does imply in the example in the PH that a monk can only make one attack with each end and the rest would have to be unarmed blows, but this is not stated anywhere. Even so, it would seem that you could strike with one end of the staff at x2 bonus and have the rest of your strikes be unarmed blows at the regular power attack bonus. A double weapon is treated as a two handed weapon, if you only strike with one end.

I'll probably just house rule it does normal power attack damage to clear up any confusion.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands
.

POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Mike:

I wasn't talking about the ogre 'commoner' in the MM; I was talking about ogres as in, the race.
Sorry that I wasn't clearer, mate.

No sweat.

I think that, in general, people tend to somewhat overestimate the power of the 3.5 PA. But I guess my opinion on that is firmly on-record.

 

[Celtavian]

No tests yet from me. Soon, very soon. One concern I have at the moment is that modules tend to use low AC cannon fodder in great numbers that will be killed substantially faster with feats such as Great Cleave. Also, the bards ability to provide an even greater attack bonus and Greater Weapon Specialization will also add to the damage at higher levels.

For most players who don't run in high level games, I don't think it will be particularly noticeable. Its the higher level game where it might be a problem given the propensity to use relatively low AC cannon fodder combined with the ability of high level characters to buff themselves up. Alot of factors to be taken into account to determine the effectiveness of the new Power Attack, and a basic analysis even of variable AC's given the absence of buffing, items, and feat chains make it nigh impossible to see what the most efficient character might be able to accomplish.

I will be running a Half-dragon Paladin of Torm who wields a greatsword. If he can't take serious advantage of the new Power Attack, then it really should not be a problem.

 

[Arc]

I'm running a two-hander right now, and the new power attack is good... just not that good. Sure, with PA and a critical or two, his damage output is something to see, but otherwise, he's relatively balanced with the party.

Of course, that's just his damage output. Having the highest AC in the party is rather disconcerting... and was rather easy to do.

 

[Jhyrryl]

Of course, that's just his damage output. Having the highest AC in the party is rather disconcerting... and was rather easy to do.

Hijacking a bit here... I find that really high ACs are pretty easy to acquire. As a DM, that annoys me quite often, but I find that I still don't have any problems hurting the party when I really want to.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My gaming group have discussed it and decided that we are not going to use it. It is an unneeded boost for 2H fighting which was already the most effective method of fighting for fighters in our opinion. Why should a Fighter be penalised because he wanted to spend feats on other styles of combat?

It was a bad call in our opinion. Andy Collins percieved mismatch between "fighters using two light weapons getting more out of the feat than 2H fighters" missed several important issues which are quite apart from the numbers. In no particular order there is

• the single attack vs full attack issue (twf only matches 2h fighting when taking full attacks, lots of situations don't allow that - charge, AoO, spring attack etc),
• the fact that the twf he was worried about had already burnt *2 feats* to get that style, why shouldn't he get some additional benefit? How many twf actually have a 13 Str (because Fighters with the Ambi had to have 15+ dex anyway) and went down the heavy chopping route? Similarly the non twf finesse fighters, who are using weapons with lower damage, probably lower STR bonuses (which are not especially incremented) lose out too.
• Compare this with the way that expertise doubly penalises twf and spring attack which seems a quintessentially light fighter feat is actually far more effective for the 2h fighter because of the big single-attack bonus to damage.

So we considered it a meaningless change to pump up 2H Fighters and hamper finesse Fighters which wasn't necessary.


(nb did you notice that they've made sleep a *full round casting time* spell now


Cheers

 

[MadScientist]

I have to agree with PS. At first I was worried that the new PA would be too powerful for 2-handed fighters, but all of the mathmatical analysis demonstrated this was not the case. What it did demonstrate to me, however, was that the only way for TWF to be able to out-damage 2-handers on a full attack (which since they spent the extra feat(s) they should be able to do) was to let them PA as well.

I never bothered me at all that light weapon fighters could get more out of PA than heavy weapon fighters. Now I'm convinced that it was a GOOD thing, even necessary. It made some other wise inferior styles viable. Also PA is the prereq for the Cleave and Sunder feats, which are amazing for 2-handed fighters. So it doesn't bother me that PA for strong 2-handed fighters was only useful against very low AC opponents. It doesn't have to be generally useful to be worth while. After all low AC, high HP monsters are not that uncommon (zombies anyone?).

 

[Bagpuss]

Personally I don't see a problem with the new Power Attack regards PC's having it.

Its when the Orge gets the drop on the party wizard / rogue / sorcerer types and does a power attack by 3 with his great club, hits for 2d8+13 kills rogue and wizard types outright, under one for one system they would more likely end up in minuses but not dead dead.

I'm more worried for my players.

 

[Number47]

New power attack doesn't seem a big deal for PCs. I'm just worried what DMs will do with it. I'm even more worried about all those meatgrinder adventures that keep coming out. You know that some designer will want to show off his uber-leet halfdragon weretiger ogre powerattacking spiked chain massive damage.