Proposal: Alter Expertise Related House Rule

[evilbob]

Two words: dragonborn paladin.

A dragonborn paladin gets extra screwed by anything that isn't a flat bonus; they have weapons, implements, and a breath attack, all of which take different feats to boost. (Not to mention that as one of the few dual-stat classes, they're already behind the curve.)

I would also be in favor of changing the flat bonus to a feat bonus instead of giving a bonus feat slot.

 

[renau1g]

I vote NO to this

I rather rather make the combat expertise bonus a feat bonus instead of an untyped one

After some thought I'd prefer we keep it like this as Ozy mentioned

NO to the current proposal.

A separate proposal will be needed if this one doesn't pass in order to change our untyped bonus to a feat bonus.

 

[ryryguy]

I'm not sure where I come down on this question, but just wanted to point out, some of these complaints are really just highlighting that our current house rule is quite generous.

The dragonborn paladin is only "extra screwed" by changing the house rule because he was "extra blessed" by the house rule. In the case of a single weapon type user, the house rule is filling in for a single feat. In the case of the breathing/weapon/implement paladin, it's filling in for multiple feats.

I think it's worth considering whether the house rule may have overshot its intent. If the intent was just to counter the "feat tax", then granting a bonus feat addresses that most directly. It addresses it equally for all builds - it's just that not all builds are equal before we even get to that point.

 

[elecgraystone]

From my experience in the games I DM here &LEB PC's have very little issue hitting the monsters so potential stacking will make it even easier.

LOL You must not be looking at the games I've been playing in. One of my first games here, the only way I could damage the enemy was to use my ice armor spell and stand near the bad guys and let the auto damage do it's work. I think I hit once the whole game.

Over in LEB, I had 4 rounds of 1d20 rolls for attacks that didn't add up to 20 and we had at least one round of combat if not 2 that the WHOLE party couldn't hit the last wounded bad guy. Total misses all around. I can say with confidence that I've missed WAY more often than hit. (stupid IC)

I wouldn't mind the ability for the character to pick their 'expertise' at 5th. Racial expertise feats award bonus damage along with to hit as long as you use a keyword attack. However who'd use it if you lose the to hit bonus at 5th? You might as well take a focus feat for the damage and all your attacks get the bonus damage.

To address Velmont's multi-weapon/implement worries, Versatile Expertise allows a weapon and an implement so all those weapon + implement characters aren't an issue. There might be a corner case of people using a variety of weapons though. It's in dragon and hasn't been errata'd so it'a avalible.

How about this. Allow people to pick the generic expertise (+1 to everything) or their racial expertise at 5th. That way if you want to juggle 5 different weapon in a fight, take the generic. If you're a dragonborn wizard with a flaming staff, take your racial expertise.

To evilbob, does our expertise affect racial attacks?

 

[renau1g]

LOL You must not be looking at the games I've been playing in. One of my first games here, the only way I could damage the enemy was to use my ice armor spell and stand near the bad guys and let the auto damage do it's work. I think I hit once the whole game.

Over in LEB, I had 4 rounds of 1d20 rolls for attacks that didn't add up to 20 and we had at least one round of combat if not 2 that the WHOLE party couldn't hit the last wounded bad guy. Total misses all around. I can say with confidence that I've missed WAY more often than hit. (stupid IC)

But then would a +1 have really helped?

Murphy has the same curse as Ts'iri it seems, Murphy's last 5 attack rolls?

6, 2, 7, 6, & 9

 

[Oni]

Changing the existing bonus to a feat bonus would be functional, but I'm not a fan. I would prefer to stick closer to the actual rules rather and I don't like that it changes the relative utility of other feats like Draconic Spellcaster. I feel we're going to see more of these in the future as well so the problem will only grow more pronounced over time. All in all its just a less flexible solution.

BTW, while I haven't seen it with my own eyes, Versatile Expertise has been confirmed by people that have the PHB3 as being choose an implement group and choose a weapon group gain a +1/+2/+3 feat bonus to hit with no extra caveats.

 

[evilbob]

The dragonborn paladin is only "extra screwed" by changing the house rule because he was "extra blessed" by the house rule.

I disagree with your word choice but you have a good point. I am happy to admit that I think dragonborn paladins are extra screwed by anything OTHER than the type of house rule in place currently - and I think they need that kind of extra help. Certainly, that may be a different issue.

 

[renau1g]

Well the point of the Expertise feats has been to address a "math error" and so providing the correction to this error is what the house rule is to address. For the specialized feats, well you still get the +1 bonus to damage (although you'd be better with weapon focus), but that's not the point of the houserule to increase DPR.

 

[ryryguy]

I disagree with your word choice but you have a good point.

"extra screwed" was your phrase. or was it "extra blessed" that you disagreed with?

 

[elecgraystone]

But then would a +1 have really helped? Murphy has the same curse as Ts'iri it seems, Murphy's last 5 attack rolls? 6, 2, 7, 6, &9

Well in the current adventure, at least for me, that'd be a 'hell no'! Can't do much with a 5, 5, 4, 4! That was Euphemia and not Ts'iri though.

However in my first adventure, yes it would have been a huge help. IC seemed to have great joy in letting me JUST miss. A +1 would have turned an adventure of total misses into a 50% hit/miss adventure.

For the specialized feats, well you still get the +1 bonus to damage (although you'd be better with weapon focus), but that's not the point of the houserule to increase DPR.

However, it in effect phases out those feats by making them useless. You have to look at the consequences of things that aren't the point of the houserule. You're killing iconic race/class combos by making the racial feats obsolete. Why focus on the damage my breath weapon does when I can do the same thing AND can swap elements depending on the target?

Oh and in case people are wondering how people have PHB3 early, WOTC has stated that they are picking places out and sending them it up to 2 weeks early and that they can put it up for sale. It seems that they are going to be doing that from now on.

I'll agree Oni. If we change the houserule, it should be to allow other types of expertise instead of making them obsolete. It'll keep us closer to the actual rules and make all the feats an option.