Proposal: Alter Expertise Related House Rule

[elecgraystone]

I'd like our existing bonus to remain but be changed to a feat bonus as well. It does make some of the attack boosting feats less appealing, but I really like the fact that our scaling bonus applies to things that the expertise and similar feats leave out (racial attacks, grabs, etc.).

Replace less appealing with useless and you'd be right. What's the point of having all illusion spells or fire spells when you can spend the same feat and get that bonus damage to every spell you have? Changing our 5th level bump to a feat bonus means we might as well just remove all other expertise feats.

I'm with Kalidrev all the way on just giving a free expertise feat at 5th. For most non standard attacks, there is already a way to get a bonus that doesn't stack with expertise. If you are a grab specialist, you're going to take improved grab right? So what good does a +1 bonus from expertise do for you when the feat gives you a +4 feat bonus?

For racials, it seems clear that it's not WOTC's intent to have that work in 99% of cases. Out of the 2 dozen breathweapon feats only one adds to breath weapons to hit all the time. Draconic spellcaster and it has it's drawbacks. To get the 'buff' you have to be arcane and all your attacks have to be the same keyword. You give something to get something. Now look at Genasi's 44 racial feats. A grand total of 1 adds to the to hit of the one of the 3 racial attacks they have, Master of Rumbling Earth.

To Mezegis saying "If I had a vote, I'd say keep it like it is and not punish people for playing the classes that use lots of different items for their powers." I'd have to scratch my head and ask who are you talking about? With the new PHB3 feats you're covered for most things with the ability to even pick a weapon and an implement with one feat.

Now if a player wants a funky multi weapon/implement combo with several different types, I don't feel sorry for them. If a dragonborn has to use all fire, am I going to cry that the weapon user had to use all heavy blades or axes? nope! And to be fair, it's WOTC that would be punishing them, not us. The game if full of flavorful 'theme' feats for a reason, and if you step outside of those it's like picking a goliath wizard and complaining that you're getting punished because you didn't get a racial +2 to Int.

 

[Mewness]

I consider the loss of specific expertise feats a small one, if indeed they are lost. I don't see what's so flavorful about +1/+2/+3 to hit and/or damage, quite honestly. Feats that enable you to do something you couldn't before are flavorful. Feats that give you a bonus to something you do routinely are boring but necessary. The feats are math patches, and I think it's easiest to just patch the math in the simplest way possible. Keeping our house rule and making it a feat bonus does that.

 

[elecgraystone]

It's not the bonuses themselves but that happens when you take them. Having an acid mage is flavorful. Or a frost witch. Or an illusionist. or a charm master.

Now the generic +1/+2/+3 is totally flavorless and doesn't encourage ANY of the above 'themes'. In fact it pushes them out because the 'theme' feats are useless if we give out a mandatory feat bonus on everything. Why play a fire mage when everything you cast is at a +1 to hit?

Now as far as simple, I don't even see that. By just changing the 5th level bonus to a feat bonus you are in effect removing several feats from the game by relegating them to uselessness. Anyone that has the above feats will have to change them and may wish to alter their character since their theme has been made obsolete. It doesn't sound all that simple IMO.

 

[Mezegis]

Fixing math errors doesn't need to be flavorful, and if not getting an extra +1 to something stops someone from playing a theme they had in mind, well they weren't to keen on playing that theme anyway.

 

[renau1g]

Nor does the +1 discourage any of the above themes. You want to play a fire mage, go for it. Choose flaming burst (if wizzo) or burning spray (if sorcerer). I fail to see how having a +1 to hit on fire spells makes you any more or any less of a fire mage. You want +1 to damage? Weapon focus for sorcerers works.

Iconics already have the benefit of having the two stats bonuses in the "right" stats. Elven Rangers, Eladrin wizards, dragonborn paladins, goliath barbarians, halfling rogues, etc, etc... so why do they need even more benefits over playing non-traditional PCs? By doing that all we're doing is discouraging different combinations.

 

[Oni]

I would also like to point out for those that want to keep the flat bonus that applies to everything, that WotC is releasing new options such as the Brawling Fighter that make use of things like grabs, and they are balanced by according to WotC's version of the rules. While it doesn't affect every power, it does some of them, and as they release more material I think we'll save some headache by just cleaving closer to their rules.

 

[elecgraystone]

if not getting an extra +1 to something stops someone from playing a theme they had in mind, well they weren't to keen on playing that theme anyway.

it's not the +1 but what you gave up for it. Suddenly you're behind another player that doesn't focus on one kind of attack. Some, me included, would find that unfair. Why to you think they altered the draconic spellcaster feat to include damage? They wanted to encourage the theme and reward people for focusing their character. Anything else would have doomed the feat to uselessness. Pretty much the same as leaving the 5th level bonus and making it a feat bonus would do...

Nor does the +1 discourage any of the above themes.

Yes, yes it does. When you offer an option that doesn't have to give up something and an option the DOES have to give up something you're discouraging people from taking the option that gets less.

You want to play a fire mage, go for it. Choose flaming burst (if wizzo) or burning spray (if sorcerer). I fail to see how having a +1 to hit on fire spells makes you any more or any less of a fire mage. You want +1 to damage? Weapon focus for sorcerers works.

Now you give something up to get the fire mage. A +1 for having all fire attacks and having the possibility that monsters have a resistance to it. Or you can play a wizard that gets a bonus to every spell. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure our which is better.

Weapon focus also works with a staff so wizards get focus too. Which is why I said 'why take the more restrictive feat? Staff focus and a generic +1 damage feat works on every spell.

Iconics already have the benefit of having the two stats bonuses in the "right" stats. Elven Rangers, Eladrin wizards, dragonborn paladins, goliath barbarians, halfling rogues, etc, etc... so why do they need even more benefits over playing non-traditional PCs? By doing that all we're doing is discouraging different combinations.

LOL Who said more? Not I. They now have the option to get something by giving something. The get bonuses by focusing on one kind of attack.

To a lesser extent this is true with non-iconic builds. Someone that ONLY uses axes or crossbows has more flavor that a ranger that'll pick up any old weapon that comes by. You give up options (feats based on weapon type, kinds of enchants ect) for the ability to get a bonus to hit. The generic bonus it just that. Boring and encourages everyone to NOT specialize.

Oni has a good point too. Not knowing what WOTC has in store for the future, the closer we keep to the rules the better. We never know when we might see feats that require the expertise type feats as a requirement. Or a feat that gives an untyped bonus to a racial attack powers to hit (and then would stack with our feat bonus), making it stronger than intended.

 

[elecgraystone]

Just had a thought. If we DO just leave the bonus and make it a feat bonus, I'd suggest we alter the racial expertise feat to work like hellfire blood. A static untyped +1 hit and +1 damage. That way, the racial feats aren't useless and everyone gets their easy +1 feat bonus at 5th. In fact, this way it's even better because a character could pick it up a first instead of waiting till 5th. This might be a way to keep everyone happy and it keeps the feats in play in case another feat comes out later that needs them.

 

[renau1g]

Now you give something up to get the fire mage. A +1 for having all fire attacks and having the possibility that monsters have a resistance to it. Or you can play a wizard that gets a bonus to every spell. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure our which is better.

Still not sure I follow. What feat only grants a +1 to hit on fire spells? There's that feat in the PHB that grants a +1 feat bonus to damage when you use a fire spell, but as you pointed out it is far, far, far inferior to weapon focus which is even from the same source.

I still fail to see how this prevents you from specializing? Who's stopping you from taking axe feats for said ranger? Is it really that flavourful selecting Weapon Expertise (axes) vs the L4W expertise?

Really, what PC's here in L4W have switched weapons whenever they feel like it? Most players specialize in one weapon and stick with that type. Just because someone can do something doesn't mean they will.

Re: Wotc future products we also don't know for sure that they will be offering extra feats, etc. for racials so why should we alter what we're doing for the chance that they are producing feats that may affect us?

 

[renau1g]

Just had a thought. If we DO just leave the bonus and make it a feat bonus, I'd suggest we alter the racial expertise feat to work like hellfire blood. A static untyped +1 hit and +1 damage. That way, the racial feats aren't useless and everyone gets their easy +1 feat bonus at 5th. In fact, this way it's even better because a character could pick it up a first instead of waiting till 5th. This might be a way to keep everyone happy and it keeps the feats in play in case another feat comes out later that needs them.

This would be nice as a separate proposal to not get lost here in this discussion