Proposal: Don't screw over clerics

[Tomalak]

Apparently, recent errata has nerfed one of the Cleric's key class features. I don't think this change was neccessary, and I have seen this class feature in play many times, both in PbP and tabletop, as the player, as another player, and as DM. Though the convention is to accept errata automatically, I choose to challenge this change as unnecessary and unfair.

Every bonus to healing available to PCs has its own restrictions when it applies. Restricting Healer's Lore to only cleric powers prevents multiclass abuse, and prevents it from being used with skill powers and path powers. The errata, which adds the same restriction as on Pacifist Healer, would remove no few cleric powers from those currently affected by the feature, including Cure Light Wounds and related powers.

In essence, to take proper advantage of a feature that every cleric gets, a cleric would have to take a rather specific build. That seems wrong to me.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

For those who don't know, this is referring to Healer's Lore now only effecting powers that spend a surge. So no +Wis bonus to Astral Seal, Beacon of Hope, Consecrated Ground, etc.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Hmmm. I am a bit annoyed to lose my healing Lore on Beacon of Hope but that's about it. Without it, the 5 points healed won't scale and become mostly insignificant. I am not considering swapping it just yet though. It's still powerful overall.

But it was indeed a tad overwhelming with Astral Seal. It was so damn powerful I almost buckled and took the power even though it didn't particularly fit the flavor of Hadrak.

Truth to be told, I feel like this errata is entirely meant to address Astral Seal and a few other select power. Beacon of Hope or Cure Light Wound just got caught in the crossfire.

It probably would have been easier to just remove the healing tag from Astral Seal and a few other problematic power even though it would have felt less coherent.

 

[renau1g]

The melee cleric was hit the hardest by this as they lose it even though they're not dedicated "healics".

Astral Seal was crazy with focused healers, at level 4 a relatively focused healer could heal for 10 hp, which for many PC's at that level is around a surge or so. Astral Seal drops to 6 hp of free healing without it, which is still decent considering the strong de-buff that accompanies it.

As for all the other healing powers? Well, it is unfortunate, although I'm not sure I would call it screwed over, the cleric is still far superior to the other leaders in the healing department. As for not-scaling? Lots of powers don't scale well, heck even Moment of Glory doesn't (although at low-levels that power is almost auto-win in an encounter). It doesn't require a specific build to take advantage of, its that no build takes better advantage of it over another, all builds (melee, healic, lazer, balanced) get the Wis mod to Healing Word.

It sucks, but so does all errata, I know that Swarm Druids got eff'd over with the Hide Armor Expertise Nerf and any stun-locking wizards got hit hard as well. Anyone who was a Daggermaster/sorcerer or TS Half-elf one also got kicked down. Personally, I'm not crazy about ignoring errata.

 

[covaithe]

With regards to what's actually being proposed.... what *is* actually being proposed? I see a bunch of arguments, but the only place where anything resembling a proposal is spelled out is in the title of this thread, and while "Don't screw over clerics" is a fine sentiment, it's a little meaningless as it stands.

I'm not thrilled with the errata for clerics, either, but proposals really need to be explicit if you want us to be able to vote on them.

 

[Velmont]

I had the same reaction as Tomalak at first, but I thought about it and come with that:

I've been looking at the debuff made to healers, and thinking about it, it put it more in line with other powers.

I've been comparing an Ardent Demoralizing Strike to Astral Seal.

At level 30, an Ardent could hope to do 1d10+17 damage with a Cha of 26 (+8) a Bastard Sword +6 and Weapon Focus(Heavy Blade)

While a Cleric could hope to heal 22 hp, with a Cha of 26 (+8), an Healer's Brooch +6 and a Healer's Armor +6.

That's sounds still in line, even if the Cha is a secondary stat for a cleric and he needs to monopolize two magical item slots while the Ardent can have any type of Bastard Sword +6, but have 2 feat dedicated to it.

Having a Pacifist Healer in LEB, I think for the moment the errata are annoying but fair.

 

[Kalidrev]

I've never played as a cleric, but I've worked out the stats for a helic a few times (astral seal is very very tempting!), so when I saw this errata, I was actually very upset by what they had done. Yes, Astral seal, when used by a healing focused pacifist healer is nothing short of amazing, but quite frankly, it SHOULD be. The pacifist healer is bring very very little (if nothing) to the damage table, and on top of that, the healing given by AS isn't even automatic. It requires that the cleric first hit with Astral Seal, THEN it requires that another team-mate hit the astral seal target with an attack of their own. I personally thought that the errata was unfair to the pacifist healer, and even worse to those who weren't a pacifist healer because it brought their already more limited healing even lower. I'm not going to make the proposal here, but I will say that we're on the same wavelength Tomalak. Once you have actually put out a proposal, you've most likely got a yes vote from me (of course I'll have to see the proposal first ).

 

[renau1g]

and Astral Seal is more likely to hit

But yeah, like Cov, I'd like to see a bit more info on the actual proposal. I believe it is to ignore the errata to the cleric, and allow Healer's Lore to apply to all cleric healing powers?

Again, I think it's a very, very slippery slope to ignore errata... how can we say that one's unfair to one class, but others aren't? Every "nerf" takes something away from a class, it's the way it is. It's unfortunate and frustrating. I'd prefer we allow those affected to re-build their character without using their 1/career build.

Also, Kal, have you ever seen River miss with Astral Seal? I don't recall it happening. But even if he did, it still doesn't matter as any class can miss. Also, have you seen 1 instance of River hitting with AS and all of the PC's missing? Never...not once will all 4-5 other PC's miss the target

 

[Velmont]

Also, how many times River have used Astral Seal. The more you raise in level, the more power you have and the less you use your at-will. And if you use Mal's Rules (which is use by many master now), you can even better coordinate the attack so the cleric start and each wounded try to attack the target, raising the chance of a better output of AS.

I've seen River, Minharath and Knoepf run around I think that nerf won't hurt that much.

But as I told, I feel that the Healer's Brooch and Healer's Armor will become a no-brainers to pacifist. That's something I find a bit sad.

 

[renau1g]

Just like Iron Armbands of Power are no-brainers for melee types and bracers of Archery are no-brainers for ranged attackers... it does suck that some items are far, far better than others, but I guess something has to be the best. Same reason every ranger takes twin strike. It's better than any other at-will in the game.