Proposal: Don't screw over clerics

[Tomalak]

The official proposal is "Ignore the May 2010 errata to Healer's Lore". I apologize for being unclear.

Truth to be told, I feel like this errata is entirely meant to address Astral Seal and a few other select power. Beacon of Hope or Cure Light Wound just got caught in the crossfire.

I have a personal maxim, that I feel applies here "Addressing a problem with an individual by affecting the entire group will only create more problems."

It probably would have been easier to just remove the healing tag from Astral Seal and a few other problematic power even though it would have felt less coherent.

I don't know about doing that either. Astral seal does comparable healing (even enhanced) to the amount of damage done by an attack. Considering that it does no damage, I don't see the problem. Do we have any current or past M:tG players here? I am reminded of Fog - it didn't win you the game, it just kept you alive a little longer so something else could.

As for all the other healing powers? Well, it is unfortunate, although I'm not sure I would call it screwed over, the cleric is still far superior to the other leaders in the healing department. As for not-scaling? Lots of powers don't scale well, heck even Moment of Glory doesn't (although at low-levels that power is almost auto-win in an encounter). It doesn't require a specific build to take advantage of, its that no build takes better advantage of it over another, all builds (melee, healic, lazer, balanced) get the Wis mod to Healing Word.

All builds add Wis, sure. But not all builds take Wis. A Str cleric doesn't need wisdom, except for this one class feature. And if the errata goes through, surgeless healing can't use it either. So you're restricted to the same things that a Pacifist Healer is restricted to. As such, I would imagine that most clerics who actually take advantage of Healer's Lore would also take Pacifist Healer, because it follows the same restrictions. I believe the restriction on Pacifist Healer is appropriate and balanced. It's a powerful feat. Healer's Lore is a Class Feature, and IMO most of the characters who have it, should get to use it. Perhaps if WoTC were to introduce an alternative to Healer's Lore, as they did with the Martial Classes recently, I might be happier with the eratta.

It sucks, but so does all errata, I know that Swarm Druids got eff'd over with the Hide Armor Expertise Nerf and any stun-locking wizards got hit hard as well. Anyone who was a Daggermaster/sorcerer or TS Half-elf one also got kicked down. Personally, I'm not crazy about ignoring errata.

Errata is designed to balance the game. As such, it's an important tool that allows WotC to make sure an oversight doesn't go overboard and allow something silly (infinite damage combo?). But like anything else WotC writes, we should take a look at it and ask "Do we want this in our game?" I have significant experience with Astral Seal, and with clerics who both use and don't use it. I don't think it is broken as-is, I have no problem with a player using it in my games, and I don't think it needs errata. I think this is a case of WotC getting overzealous and nerfing something that didn't need it. I don't think it's as clear a case as, for example, Avenger AC totals or Oversized Minotaurs.

But as I told, I feel that the Healer's Brooch and Healer's Armor will become a no-brainers to pacifist. That's something I find a bit sad.

Anything that "must" be taken for any character is likely unbalanced. But when I'm playing a specific build, there are items I'm going to want. For example: If I'm playing a fighter who uses lots of melee basics, and likely runs around with a Bravura Warlord, I'm taking the Bracers of Might Striking. It's better than anything else, why wouldn't I take it? Not all fighters take it, it simply suits the character I'm playing.

Most of what a Pacifist Healer does is healing. Taking items that enhance healing is a no-brainer, sure. Why would that be bad? Does your striker not take items that help him deal damage?

 

[renau1g]

I don't know about doing that either. Astral seal does comparable healing (even enhanced) to the amount of damage done by an attack. Considering that it does no damage, I don't see the problem.

All builds add Wis, sure. But not all builds take Wis. A Str cleric doesn't need wisdom, except for this one class feature. And if the errata goes through, surgeless healing can't use it either. So you're restricted to the same things that a Pacifist Healer is restricted to. As such, I would imagine that most clerics who actually take advantage of Healer's Lore would also take Pacifist Healer, because it follows the same restrictions. I believe the restriction on Pacifist Healer is appropriate and balanced. It's a powerful feat. Healer's Lore is a Class Feature, and IMO most of the characters who have it, should get to use it. Perhaps if WoTC were to introduce an alternative to Healer's Lore, as they did with the Martial Classes recently, I might be happier with the eratta.

I don't get why you're saying those with Healer's Lore should get to use it? They do. If a melee cleric dumps Wis or makes it really low, it's not helping him even pre-errata. It is the same as Pacifist Healer, although without the very significant disadvantage of stunning you. Also, Str clerics have healing strike, still benefits from HL. Beacon of Hope still boosts all your healing powers, Consecrated Grounds is more balanced now, overall I think it brings the classes healing more in line with other leaders.

Also, one thing people forgot about Astral Seal is the amazing de-buff. If looked at in a vacuum, sure it does no damage, but when you add in the increased hit rate for your allies? It does do "damage" by increasing everyone's DPR.

[sblock=Effectiveness of AS vs. LoF]
Compare Astral Seal to Lance of Faith. Astral Seal (current) heals for about 3-4 hp at lvl 1 plus grants the monster a -2 to defenses. LoF does average of 8.5 damage and one person gets +2 power bonus to hit so average damage is 4/round (assume 50% hit rate) vs "free" healing of 2, so far advantage LoF

Now, at level 1 a striker does about 10-12 damage per hit and the defender does 8.5 damage and the controller does 7. If you have 2 strikers, 1 defender and 1 controller your average damage/round is 5.5+5.5+4.25+3 = 18.25 (assume 50% hit rate). If now the hit rate goes up to 60% hit rate the damage expectation is 6.6+6.6+5.1+4.2 = 22.5. LoF adds 1 DPR by giving 1 striker the bonus to hit. So end of the day at level 1 with no bonuses to AS you end up with:

23.25 damage with LoF & 22.5 damage + 2 points of free healing. Pretty much even. After you grab some healing-focused items and feats AS should pull ahead as well as all allies damage increasing at a likely higher rate than the clerics [/sblock]

Like I've said before, I personally don't find it egregious enough to block this errata. I personally dislike having house rules as it increases barrier of entry and difficulty for judges/reviewers and DM's.

 

[Velmont]

Also, another thing to consider, generally, the monsters have more hp in total than the heroes. I just check in one of my actual combat (a tough one, renau1g know what encounter level it is , but we are all level 1):

Monsters: 290 (not counting minions)
Heroes: 175 (including one NPC ally to the group)

So healing 10 damage will have a greater effect than doing 10 damage in the combat. That's another thing to consider.

 

[renau1g]

True. FYI the encounter level is 5

 

[ryryguy]

Personally, I feel like taking all the errata is the correct, default choice. It's a pretty "strong" default - there is a pretty high bar for me to ignore errata. I mean, nerfs always hurt the characters who use the nerfed features. That's why they are nerfs! So it has to be more than just that.

I would not choose to ignore the Healer's Lore errata. Healer's Lore still works with the primary cleric healing power Healing Word and many other healing powers, just like it always has. So I also don't really understand the idea that clerics "don't get to use it" after the errata.

On the other hand, I agree that powers like "Cure Light Wounds" feel somewhat like "collateral damage" of this nerf. The healic in my face to face game - a Strength cleric in fact - took Cure Light Wounds initially but gradually changed his build to get more healing powers, including Astral Seal, Stream of Life, etc. As a result he found that Cure Light Wounds did not measure up, so he retrained it. If Healer's Lore still worked with Cure Light Wounds (but still those other surgeless healing powers), it might bring it more back into line as a valid power selection. Since it's a daily that only heals once, it doesn't seem abusable.

So I wouldn't be averse to a proposal that the errata be amended to "Healer's Lore works with cleric powers that allow the target to spend a surge or heal as if the target had spent a surge", so that it would still work with the "Cure...Wounds" series of powers. I don't think it's really necessary, but I don't think it'd be bad anyway.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I don't know about doing that either. Astral seal does comparable healing (even enhanced) to the amount of damage done by an attack. Considering that it does no damage, I don't see the problem. Do we have any current or past M:tG players here? I am reminded of Fog - it didn't win you the game, it just kept you alive a little longer so something else could.

People often do not realize that Astral does indeed cause damage. In some situations, it does more damage than any other at will including twin strike.

By reducing the defense of the target, it makes all other attacks more likely to hit. If the parry scatters it attacks or if it's a small party, then Astral Seal doesn't do much damage in the long run. But if you have a 6 man party with a lot of ranged attackers, Astral Seal is a crushing power just on the basis of that -2 to defenses.

 

[Tomalak]

Unfortunately, it seems I simply disagree with the majority on this case. I hold that this nerf is intended to make 'healic's less useful, essentially forcing a cleric player to diversify to gain full advantage of his character. I, for one, don't like it when I perceive the company building my characters for me (i.e. 'you shouldn't build a healing-only character, you should diversify' - which is what this nerf seems to me to be saying).

All in all, this alteration won't affect too many players, so it's not a huge crime, but it is a damn shame.

 

[Tomalak]

People often do not realize that Astral does indeed cause damage. In some situations, it does more damage than any other at will including twin strike.

By reducing the defense of the target, it makes all other attacks more likely to hit. If the parry scatters it attacks or if it's a small party, then Astral Seal doesn't do much damage in the long run. But if you have a 6 man party with a lot of ranged attackers, Astral Seal is a crushing power just on the basis of that -2 to defenses.

Compare to Gaze of Defiance, which gives a similar bonus (+1 to hit, or +3 if the enemy attacks you), and does damage. Astral Seal in comparison is just trading out gaze's damage for healing.

 

[Iron Sky]

Just to weigh in on the issue, I think the errata was long overdue and much-needed.

Last time I ran my RL Paragon-level game, the cleric lay in his Consecrated Ground for three rounds with three monsters Coup-de-gracing him and they couldn't do enough damage to kill him since Consecrated Ground kept taking him from somewhere in the decently-negative hitpoints to just shy of not bloodied.

He was even dazed, but he'd just spend his one action to sustain the zone, get dropped and pounded on, it would bring him back, he'd sustain, repeat. Not to mention his Astral Seal's heal was more than any character's surge value (except the Wardens)...

People in my group were somewhat loathe to play any leader EXCEPT for clerics since their healing capability dwarfed the others. Now they still have the best heals, but they don't make the others look quite as pitiful in comparison.

 

[covaithe]

From an encounter design perspective, I'm glad to see Astral Seal get a nerf. It's already hard enough to challenge a well-built 4e party who knows their tactics. Throw in at-will healing, and it gets even harder.

I'm less happy to see other cleric powers getting the nerf. I thought it was a Good Thing that clerics were the best healers in the game. Now... well, they might still be, but I'm less sure of it.