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4E Proposal: Great Halberd, New Superior Reach Axe

garyh

Villager
So, I'm aiming to play a human paladin once Divine Power becomes legal. Specifically her...




...and in so doing, I want to use a superior reach axe. Unfortunately, such a thing does not currently exist. Thus, this proposal!

Here's the weapon I propose:

Great Halberd / +2 proficiency bonus / 1d12 damage / axe, polearm / reach, high crit/ 30 GP / 16 lbs.

My reasoning involves looking at how other weapons shift when made superior.

Greatsword -> Fullblade: increase damage die, high crit
Greatsword -> Greatspear (yes, different weapon types, but the same +3 / 1d10 base): add reach

So, it stands to reason you can take a greataxe and add reach to get a superior weapon, a la greatsword -> greatspear, or you can start with the halberd, and increase the damage die and add high crit, a la greatsword -> fullblade. Either the greataxe + reach or the halberd + increase damage die and high crit gets you to how I envision the great halberd, following established superior weapon methods.

So, what say the esteemed Judges of Living Eberron?

I'm also open to ideas on the name. Bardiche, voulge, pole axe, and executioner's halberd all come to mind as reasonable options.
 

CaBaNa

Villager
Nifty!

Kamotz would take it, therefore it will be given a firm nerf-bat. ;)

We should allow this. please vote yes.
 

renau1g

Villager
I am hesitant about the increased damage size and the reach property being applied as well as the high crit. See the Greatspear a reach superior weapon. The weapon has +3 to hit, 1d10 damage and reach. Also, the spiked chain is +3, 2d4 dmg and reach, slightly better than the spear, but the flail feats are a bit worse than the spear ones.

Although the greataxe vs greatsword, +2 1d12 and high crit vs +3 1d10 damage....

Need to think a bit more, but it seems better than the other available superior reach weapons.
 

garyh

Villager
If greataxe vs greatsword is balanced, I don't see how greatspear vs great halberd is unbalanced. It's the same comparison, just with reach added to both weapons. And if greatsword to fullblade is balanced for a feat, it should be balanced for halberd to great halberd, which does the exact same thing.
 

dimsdale

Villager
I've learned not to post about such things that deal with tweaking weapons, powers and feats. Because when I have, the big NO
is not far away.

Good luck my friend.

dimsdale
 

garyh

Villager
You scared me with that big red font, dimsdale, until I realized you weren't actually a Judge. :)

I'm kinda surprised this has gotten such little attention.
 

ryryguy

Villager
Great Halberd / +2 proficiency bonus / 1d12 damage / axe, polearm / reach, high crit/ 30 GP / 16 lbs.

My reasoning involves looking at how other weapons shift when made superior.

Greatsword -> Fullblade: increase damage die, high crit
Greatsword -> Greatspear (yes, different weapon types, but the same +3 / 1d10 base): add reach

So, it stands to reason you can take a greataxe and add reach to get a superior weapon, a la greatsword -> greatspear, or you can start with the halberd, and increase the damage die and add high crit, a la greatsword -> fullblade. Either the greataxe + reach or the halberd + increase damage die and high crit gets you to how I envision the great halberd, following established superior weapon methods.
I don't know, garyh... I think what this analysis may be missing is that if you're starting with a greatsword, you're starting with a weapon that has no special qualities. So the move to a fullblade as the superior version gains two improvements, true, but you started with something more "plain". If you do want to compare greatsword to greatspear, here the move to superior only added the single property of reach, suggesting that reach may be a more valuable property than others.

Longspear -> Greatspear, which is the more obvious one to examine, only improves proficiency bonus by +1, which I believe is about equivalent to a single increase in damage die. Again, it seems like reach is valued a little higher here. And/or, a martial weapon that already has a special property (like the greataxe or halberd) gets a little bit less improvement when moving to superior.

Well, obviously there is not an exact science to this, so reasonable opinions can differ. But your proposed great halberd does just feel a little too strong to me. I could see taking the halberd and giving it either high crit or higher damage die, but not both. Do you think that such a weapon would be worth the feat, or would you skip it?
 

garyh

Villager
Longspear -> greatspear I didn't look at because I believe that's the only superior weapon where the change is a better proficiency bonus, and that isn't the direction I though an axe should go.

I just don't see how a greatsword and greataxe are balanced, but you give them both reach for a feat, and somehow the great halberd is too powerful compared to the greatspear.

That said, I'd probably still take the feat if high crit wasn't included. But I generally think the original halberd is a little weak and gives up too much for reach in the first place.
 

renau1g

Villager
Thinking about this more deeply I can't really see an issue with it in terms of game-breakingness. I agree the halberd is pretty weak.

So here we go. YES to the below Superior Weapon

Great Halberd / +2 proficiency bonus / 1d12 damage / axe, polearm / reach, high crit/ 30 GP / 16 lbs \

P.S. Titania rocks. I love Fire Emblem, closest thing left to Shining Force (from Sega) my favourite games of all time.
 

CaBaNa

Villager
Well, if it keeps going in that direction, I'll be jealous Kamotz isn't over on this side! ;)

The weapon isn't anything over the top, I agree.

and considering there are no new mundane weapons in AV2, this isn't overkill to add.
 
Here's my concern: I think it might make the other superior reach weapons obsolete. As things stand, it appears that +1 to hit is balanced against a greater damage die. This weapon looks better than a great spear, since you're giving up +1 to hit for a larger damage die and high crit.

I'm probably just going to mull for several more hours and then approve it. And then I'm going to start thinking about creating a dwarf warden with reach.
 

ryryguy

Villager
This weapon looks better than a great spear, since you're giving up +1 to hit for a larger damage die and high crit.
That's basically it, unless the greatspear has some advantage as far as weapon groups go, for spear over axe. (I'm not good at evaluating that.)

Compare to the executioner's axe: it's the same except Brutal 2 is traded for Reach. It seems more balanced based on that comparison, although there's some indications (plus my intuition) that Reach may be the top weapon quality, and maybe shouldn't be traded for others on a one-for-one basis.

I do agree that it doesn't seem horribly broken by any means. Maybe just slightly overpowered. Or maybe it's just that the greatspear is underpowered? Perhaps the designers overvalue reach?
 

CaBaNa

Villager
Reach isn't threatening, Brutal 2 is always Brutal 2, Reach also isn't useful if you want to flank for CA.

I think defensive is the top weapon quality...
 

hornedturtle

Villager
You could maybe reduce the proficiency bonus to +1 since such a weapon would be unwieldy to use. Or would that be too big a nerf?
 

garyh

Villager
+1 proficiency would be too big of a nerf, imo.

How about high cit and 1d11? :devil:
Invisible Castle can handle a d11. :)

Example (1d11=11)

And yeah, +1 prof is a darn big nerf.

If it helps to see why I'm even interested in a reach weapon, it's so that I can use Divine Challenge on a target, then keep engaging them while also applying Divine Sanction on any target I can reach. If I wasn't going to do that, I'd use the same picture and call it an executioner's axe. :)
 

ukingsken

Villager
Hmmmm I am as of yet unswayed but listing strongly to the yes just because even if it were a little brokn I dont think its enough to matter.
 

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