Pulling the plug

[Jacob Lewis]

One of these days I want to start a forum game to see who can guess how many times Tony Vargas can manage to bring up the edition wars in a single thread...

And I would like it to stop. We are starting to escalate as it is. I have no animosity towards any Edition or a person's preference one over the other. 5e works very well, but it is not for me at this time. Likewise, I have a lot of fond memories from 3e going all the way to Basic sets and Advanced. I can understand the decision from a business perspective to cut the cord and deny greater flexibility for others to pick up where they left off, but that doesn't mean I am happy about it. What I do not abide is someone telling me and others that our feelings are unjustified or unwarranted. Extreme reactions and attacks, on the other hand, are fair game. So I can't/won't speak for anyone else, but don't lump me with others who have behaved or reacted very poorly. The warring is over. Let us continue in peace.

And again, not directing at anyone in particular. Just speaking to the general audience. Another smiley face.

 

[Tony Vargas]

And I would like it to stop.

I'd've liked it to have stopped in 2008.

I have no animosity towards any Edition or a person's preference one over the other. 5e works very well, but it is not for me at this time. Likewise, I have a lot of fond memories from 3e going all the way to Basic sets and Advanced.

Which is admirable, and (increment your counter Imaro) a stark yet hopeful contrast to the depths of the edition war.

I can understand the decision from a business perspective to cut the cord and deny greater flexibility for others to pick up where they left off, but that doesn't mean I am happy about it. What I do not abide is someone telling me and others that our feelings are unjustified or unwarranted. Extreme reactions and attacks, on the other hand, are fair game. So I can't/won't speak for anyone else, but don't lump me with others who have behaved or reacted very poorly. The warring is over. Let us continue in peace.

And again, not directing at anyone in particular. Just speaking to the general audience.

Understood and appreciated.

Another smiley face.

The boards parse an old-school ASCI sideways smiley and insert the little graphic, if you want to start using them.

;) or :) 
I'm sure some other work, too, 
though it doesn't parse ;P

;P

 

[Lanefan]

Yes, I have a great big brain. Which means I understand that using a tool to spend less time and effort doing something that would take a lot more effort without one leaves more time and energy for other things. That is being efficient, not lazy or feebleminded. I don't need it (and yes, I have the offline ones that are buggy and difficult to modify using other people's hacks), but that doesn't mean I don't want it. And frankly, if WotC is done with 4th Edition, it seems to me that keeping others from making use of it with a similar OGL means they don't want to give anyone else a chance to do it better. And if any edition is in need of some cleaning up and making improvements, it is 4e.

Regarding the lack of a 4e OGL, the 3e OGL had led to two developments that can't have pleased WotC in their role as custodians of the game and as businesspeople:

- in the early 3e years an awful lot of awful 3rd-party stuff came out, no threat to the business but not good for the at-the-time-rebounding game overall
- in the later years some very good 3rd-party stuff came out and the business types saw the writing on the wall...they they went on to get clubbed upside the head by Pathfinder shows they read the signs right.

And so they backed off from opening 4e up...and overdid that, resulting in what we have for 5e.

That said, there was no such thing as an OGL before 3e, and in fact many years of the opposite: TSR trying to suppress fan sites and fan or 3rd-party productions etc. at every opporunity. Didn't stop me from evolving my 1e game into what I still play today, nor did it stop boatloads of others from doing likewise for their own groups and tables.

Now, I suppose if your eventual intent is that your 4e evolutions reach a wider audience than your local group you're going to run up against it. But for your own table and group you can do what you like, just like what many of us did to 1e in the 1980's, and give yourself a better game.

Lan-"welcome to the kitbashers' union"-efan

 

[Jacob Lewis]

I'd've liked it to have stopped in 2008.

As long as we're wishing for things from the past, right? No, I'm with you on this. And I am very much enjoying this conversation for my part of the participation, which is what I was looking for. A discussion. Not advice or sympathy or kudos (though it is appreciated at times). I guess my next step is deciding what to do next.

Winking smiley face for Mr. Vargas.

 

[MJS]

Just play what you like.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That said, there was no such thing as an OGL before 3e

I know you mean 'in the context of D&D,' but I feel compelled to point out FUDGE (predecessor of FATE) and Fuzion (obscure hybrid of Hero & Interlock - ie "Hero, with the Life Path in front") in the 90s.

, and in fact many years of the opposite: TSR trying to suppress fan sites and fan or 3rd-party productions etc. at every opporunity.

Yep. In a way, PF is the Arduin of the 21st century - without all the lawsuit stuff.

But, yeah, you have a point: when the old-school crowd was up in arms over 3.0, they were arguably getting little support (Hackmaster could be counted a parody), and hadn't been since TSR closed it's doors. That's a wee bit of righteous anger, there. Of course, they didn't rise (lower) to quite the animosity/dishonesty of the edition war, either, though they got close - they invented the 'grid dependent' tirades, for instance.

OTOOH, at about the same time WotC was deciding on the poison-pill GSL, they were tacitly letting the OSR gang clone the earlier incarnations of the game.

As long as we're wishing for things from the past, right? No, I'm with you on this.

At least I don't have to be careful wishing it, as there's no chance I'll get it.

And I am very much enjoying this conversation for my part of the participation, which is what I was looking for. A discussion. Not advice or sympathy or kudos (though it is appreciated at times). I guess my next step is deciding what to do next.

Winking smiley face for Mr. Vargas.

Well, whatever you do, you can discuss it here in the general forum (good call posting here rather than the 5e forum - sorry, you've had enough compliments, we're embarrassing you, by now). Different thread, though, this one may yet self-destruct.

If you revert to a past edition, ENWorld also has a forum for that, including mavins for each of those past editions, even 4e (as I hope you noticed, upthread, the on-line tools are still there). Of course, if you choose PF, there's literal (haven't weighed them, myself, so maybe not literal - but a while back someone counted up all the available material for recent d20 game and PF had significantly more than any one ed of D&D, 3.5 coming in 2nd) tons of material for it. There's a wealth of OSR stuff with which I am almost completely unfamiliar (my preference when 'paleogaming' as a I call it, is to go all the way back to the beginning - for me, that's 1e AD&D, RQI, 1st ed Gamma World, etc..). There's 13th Age which is quite an interesting mix of tradition and innovation, a few bits of the latter lend themselves to being readily adaptable to other d20 games, by design.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Well I think this discussion has run its course. Time to move forward. But before we do, I want to thank everyone who participated. It is an interesting time for D&D, one that we have not seen very often. The newest edition has its share of mixed perspectives from all kinds of players, both past and newly present. And for the first time it seems that no matter where you sit from the fence, it has been largely acceptable for the rest.

I found myself on unfamiliar ground wondering what will become of my decision to leave the current version in-print and hugely popular. I have lots of previous material, much beloved and able to carry me through the rest of my gaming life. But they are not without flaws--most notably they lack the modern ideas of game design and technological support. Houserules and personalization has always been a par for the course in any edition, but is it worth the additional effort? Perhaps. But I am always ambitious in my pet projects and more often prone to do things the best way rather than the easy way. I can be my own worst enemy that way, but I like pushing the envelope. Time is the real enemy, actually. We all know that.

I have a lot more to say, but not a lot of time to say it. Maybe I should write a column, or start a blog. Or keep making threads like this one and hope for the best. I enjoy reading the ideas and opinions of others. Maybe someone will enjoy reading mine. And who knows? I might inspire someone else to do something I haven't thought to do myself. And if nothing else, maybe let people know they're not alone in this situation and that there is still segments of the community for them to call home. So what's wrong with that? Well, I'm sure someone out there can think of something.

Smiley face for the win.