Pulling the plug

[Obryn]

Hey, OP! Great post; I am with you. My group and I hung with it during a lot of the playtest, and tried out Murder in Baldur's Gate ... and my players pretty much hated it. (And I was not a huge fan, myself.) I got the Big Three, because it's D&D, and it just kind of left me cold. It was trying to find a middle-ground somewhere that I didn't want a middle ground.

If I want a modern, slick, tactical RPG, I have (and love, and have been running a weekly game of since its release) 4e.

If I want an oldschool campaign experience, I have (and love, and ran recently) BECMI/RC. Or - maybe even better - some of the modern-design oldschool-style games like Dungeon Crawl Classics and Shadow of the Demon Lord, both of which are awesome.

I don't want or need something that's trying to sit in the middle there, because instead of doing something great, it tries to do a lot of things less-than-great.

And that's just for D&D fantasy. For non-D&D there's 13th Age, Warhammer, and any number of newer releases. If I want other genres, I'll gladly run Feng Shui, Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, Blades in the Dark, etc.

As (I think) [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] mentioned upthread, we're really in a great time now where there's little reason to stick with a game that doesn't tickle your fancy. So more power to you. I haven't (and won't, honestly) sold my books, but I am likewise not in the market for more.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Note to self: Do NOT post past your bedtime! You'll just wake up with a forum hangover.

if you post your opinion on a discussion forum and invite discussion (you did start the thread), well, then, how you formed that opinion is pretty much fair game. Not that you're required to answer, because you owe no one anything but civility here, but you also shouldn't get defensive when people ask.

I did come out sounding defensive there, but there's a gap in my train of unfinished thoughts (see note to self above). I know Tony was not looking for justification on my part about how much effort I put in before forming an opinion. He just wanted to know which side of the screen I was sitting, and perhaps gauge if the other side would have offered a different impression. I started answering best that I could and began formulation the counter-arguments that would inevitably appear. Not necessarily from Mr. Vargas, but you know how these boards operate.

But I stand by my statement: If a person comes to an opinion on their own terms, how he/she reaches those terms is not debatable. If I can point out one thing as an example without sparking an argument,I did not run a game for 5e. But I spent a great deal of time reading up and making preparations to do so in a way that I have done in every other edition. Playing and running the game for over 30 years affords me a lot of insight, and I see a lot of the things I did not like with earlier editions are back, like managing spell lists and the need to look up spell details all the time. That was something 4th Edition did away with over every other edition, and it was a strong selling point for me. The prospect of going back to this method was not appealing for me.

Now I'm only using my own perspective as an example because it is relevant to me. But anyone else who offers an opinion should be looked upon no different. It is their experience and their opinion. That is cannot be disputed. What we can look at is how they present themselves, how they respond to others, and most importantly, are they open for a discussion. I can withstand all the scrutiny and displeasure for my own favorite edition because it is very different than all the others. I won't begrudge that, even if someone never even bothered to open a book. That just tells me they are not really open for a discussion, and probably not worth engaging on the topic. I don't need to win them over or convince them their opinion is wrong, it just won't carry much weight with me. And leave it at that.

*sigh* I do wish I had more time to engage in this discussion as there is a lot more to say and posts I would like to respond to more directly. Until next time.

 

[ccs]

I walked away at 2nd Edition and didn't return until 5th Edition. We all have different interests and experiences and they are constantly changing, evolving. Do what is right for you.

Likewise. Somewhere around '95 or so I drifted away from 2e when my D&D group disbanded. Gaming wise I didn't stop playing D&D completely - there was GenCon each year & an occasional game (always short lived) at the local shop - but I was no longer buying D&D stuff or checking out the new stuff. Instead I spent the next 10 years on an extended tour through the WoD, fighting across miniature battlefields of all genres (a lot of 40k though), playing boardgames. Oh, & some MTG (mostly 95-2k).
I did pick up the core books for 3e when it launched. And played exactly 2 sessions.
I returned to playing D&D on a regular basis in mid 2006 with 3.5
Come 2017? My preferred editions are 1e, PF, & 5e.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Note to self: Do NOT post past your bedtime! You'll just wake up with a forum hangover.


I did come out sounding defensive there, but there's a gap in my train of unfinished thoughts (see note to self above). I know Tony was not looking for justification on my part about how much effort I put in before forming an opinion. He just wanted to know which side of the screen I was sitting, and perhaps gauge if the other side would have offered a different impression. I started answering best that I could and began formulation the counter-arguments that would inevitably appear. Not necessarily from Tony, but you know how these boards operate.

But I stand by my statement: If a person comes to an opinion on their own terms, how he/she reaches those terms is not debatable. If I can point out one thing as an example without sparking an argument,I did not run a game for 5e. But I spent a great deal of time reading up and making preparations to do so in a way that I have done in every other edition. Playing and running the game for over 30 years affords me a lot of insight, and I see a lot of the things I did not like with earlier editions are back, like managing spell lists and the need to look up spell details all the time. That was something 4th Edition did away with over every other edition, and it was a strong selling point for me. The prospect of going back to this method was not appealing for me.

Now I'm only using my own perspective as an example because it is relevant to me. But anyone else who offers an opinion should be looked upon no different. It is their experience and their opinion. That is cannot be disputed. What we can look at is how they present themselves, how they respond to others, and most importantly, are they open for a discussion. I can withstand all the scrutiny and displeasure for my own favorite edition because it is very different than all the others. I won't begrudge that, even if someone never even bothered to open a book. That just tells me they are not really open for a discussion, and probably not worth engaging on the topic. I don't need to win them over or convince them their opinion is wrong, it just won't carry much weight with me. And leave it at that.

*sigh* I do wish I had more time to engage in this discussion as there is a lot more to say and posts I would like to respond to more directly. Until next time.

Again, there's a difference between "I don't want to debate it" and "debatable." Personally, if you weren't inspired, you weren't inspired. But if you put that out on a discussion board, then, well, don't be surprised if people want to discuss it with you. You seem to be aware of this fact, so I'm left confused by what you expect will happen.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Again, there's a difference between "I don't want to debate it" and "debatable." Personally, if you weren't inspired, you weren't inspired. But if you put that out on a discussion board, then, well, don't be surprised if people want to discuss it with you. You seem to be aware of this fact, so I'm left confused by what you expect will happen.

And now I am confused. I'm not sure what the concern is for you. Perhaps I am not conveying my thoughts adequately. Maybe I just went off my own rails without realizing it. I speak from my own experience as an example, but my points were directed more to the general than the specific. It's not an issue for me, and I believe I am clearly open to discussion as we continue now.

And let's be honest, most discussions on the forum rarely get through without some misunderstanding or misplaced perception followed by unwarranted reactions. We both know the expectations, and are pleasantly surprised when the outcome is better than we expect. Smiley face.

 

[HawaiiSteveO]

Very much agree with OP.

I've played various editions of D&D off & on since 1986, every one except 4E. So much fun, so many memories.

I tried to get the guys into Savage Worlds (which I really like) so we could jump around a little bit. It went ok, but D&D is the gorilla. Getting folks to try a new game is tough!

D&D seems to be more popular than ever, so any new folks who come along want to play it. I'm not selling my books or anything, but it seems I'll have to 'settle' for no new things, only old things happening to new people.

 

[pogre]

I play and run the latest edition, because it's an ok game for me and it is the easiest to find others to play games. My home campaign is still WFRP 2e.

However, the experience the OP describes fits me for probably a dozen other systems: Bought them, tried them, and sold them. No big deal.

 

[Ninja-radish]

5E left me cold as well. I absolutely love both Pathfinder and 4E, but 5E was a massive disappointment for me. It reads and plays alot like a dozen other OSR games, with dull, generic fantasy trope classes and uninspired Tolkien retread races. I hate OSR with a passion, but that's just my own personal tastes.

It is a popular game and alot of people enjoy it, but it most definitely isn't for me.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Random thought: I think there is a considerable difference between leaving a game you tried a few times and leaving one you have played consistently for a few decades. Which is why I am surprised that I am content to give up the main books during the active period of the game. For many of us, D&D is home. We know the rules. We know the lore, as well as the history. We have familiarity and experience which is only gained through prolonged exposure and commitment. D&D belongs to everyone. So I can understand why so many felt burned by the move in 4th Edition. It wasn't appealing to many, so they chose not to get onboard. That didn't mean they were happy feeling left out because the playground was run by the new kids. But now the tables have turned as the old days have returned and the ones who jumped on the bandwagon are now standing on the sidelines.

I think the worst part in all of this for me is how the edition I would most like to continue playing and evolving has tighter restrictions with little or no chance for outside support. And let's be honest, it is the version that benefits the most from good digital tools and a much needed clean up.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think the worst part in all of this for me is how the edition I would most like to continue playing and evolving has tighter restrictions with little or no chance for outside support.

That is it's own minor tragedy. 3.x/d20 is open-source-immortal, a genie never going back in the bottle. 5e has a real srd, if a limited one (more than the basic pdf, less than the core books). The OSR guys somehow finagled permission to rip the TSR era game.
4e had the shortest run, and it's illegal to clone.

But, there's also something vaguely uplifting about it: If there's any edition-based segment of the fanbase that's been 'betrayed by WotC' and has every possible reason to figuratively war against the edition that displaced them, it's 4e fans.
But you don't see us doing it, even when we've given up on 5e.

And let's be honest, it is the version that benefits the most from good digital tools and a much needed clean up.

Y'know, the digital tools are still out there. If you have a lapsed DDI account, you can convert it to or merge it with a DCI number, and re-start the tools, a number of folks have done it.

http://ddi.wizards.com/
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...C-Tools-dead&p=6880532&viewfull=1#post6880532
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...or-get-a-sub&p=7103785&viewfull=1#post7103785
http://gc.digitalriver.com/store/dndi/html/pbPage.wizards


They only run on IE (which, if you're on Windows10 is an accessory, Edge is the default browser), and they're buggy as ever, but Digital River will take your money, in a perfunctory way, if you work at it a bit...