Pun Pun

Fieari

Explorer
Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension.

OMNIFIC ABILITIES
Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6
Indissoluble
Omniparity

TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES
Transilient [Saving Throw] x3
Transversal
Superluminal

COSMIC ABILITIES
Cosmic Consciousness

DIVINE ABILITIES
Alter Reality
Maven
Omnicompetent

11502 feat slots needed
thus, 34506 HD

36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability)
24282 CR

He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk.

As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway.
 
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Frobojoe

Visitor
Fieari said:
Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension.

OMNIFIC ABILITIES
Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6
Indissoluble
Omniparity

TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES
Transilient [Saving Throw] x3
Transversal
Superluminal

COSMIC ABILITIES (36)
Cosmic Consciousness

DIVINE ABILITIES
Alter Reality
Maven
Omnicompetent

11502 feat slots needed
thus, 34506 HD

36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability)
24282 CR

He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk.
Awesome, I was wondering if it would be possible to beat Pun-Pun using the rules in Ascension. Arbitrarily high stats don't look so hot when compared to some of the Transcendental and Omnific abilities.
Fieari said:
As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway.
Or any character with Exceptional Deflection and Reflect Arrows. :lol:
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

Fieari said:
Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension.

OMNIFIC ABILITIES
Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6
Indissoluble
Omniparity

TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES
Transilient [Saving Throw] x3
Transversal
Superluminal

COSMIC ABILITIES (36)
Cosmic Consciousness

DIVINE ABILITIES
Alter Reality
Maven
Omnicompetent

11502 feat slots needed
thus, 34506 HD

36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability)
24282 CR

He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk.
He's a wuss! :p

Fieari said:
As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway.
I think that when CR exceeds the HD modifier, you need to reduce it each time.

Using the Neutronium Golem as an example. ECL 28,989 (unmodded). HD 87.5.

So the first 175 is untouched, remainder halved = 14,407

Second 175 (350) removed, remainder halved = 7116

Third 175 (525) removed, remainder halved = 3470

4th 175 (700) removed, = 1647

5th 175 (875) removed = 736

6th 175 (1050) removed = 280

7th 175 (1225) removed = +52

Total ECL 1277 = CR 851

Neutronium Golem New CR = 851.
 

Fieari

Explorer
Nifty! I just made a quick dos prompt program in C++ to calculate ECL and CR by this method. Rename the attached file to an exe, open up a prompt ("Run" from the start menu, then: cmd), and type "golden ECL_FROM_HD UNMODIFIED_ECL"

For example,

golden 87.5 28989

produces:
Code:
1untouched HD 175 (175), halving remaining = 14407
2untouched HD 175 (350), halving remaining = 7116
3untouched HD 175 (525), halving remaining = 3470.5
4untouched HD 175 (700), halving remaining = 1647.75
5untouched HD 175 (875), halving remaining = 736.375
6untouched HD 175 (1050), halving remaining = 280.688
7untouched HD 175 (1225), halving remaining = 52.8438


1277.84 ECL golden rule
851.896 CR
Using this, golden 20 392000000000 tells me that the hulking hurler ECL is 1325, making his CR 883.

Fantastic! I'm going to try and get the ECLs for all the broken CharOp builds, like the cheater and the Uber-Charger. Maybe then an actual campaign could be built using them as characters, just for the sheer giggling joy of it.

Now, since their HD is so freaking low, providing them with properly CR challenges will likely mean that those challenges will be VERY challenging indeed, since almost anything can kill them pretty quickly... but this is the CharOp board we're talking about. If they can make these characters, they should be able to play them.

EDIT: Darn it! It won't upload... if you want the program, I guess I can email it to you instead...

Or if you have a compiler, here's the source code:
Code:
#include <iostream.h>
#include <stdlib.h>

int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
    float hd_ecl, unmod_ecl, total;
    int i = 1;
    
    if(argc < 3) { cerr << "Syntax: golden HDECL UNMODECL\n" << endl; return 1; }
    
    hd_ecl = 2 * atof(argv[1]);
    unmod_ecl = atof(argv[2]);
    total = 0;
 
    while(hd_ecl < unmod_ecl)
    {
        total += hd_ecl; 
        cout << i << "untouched HD " << hd_ecl << " (" << total << "), ";
        unmod_ecl -= hd_ecl; unmod_ecl = unmod_ecl/2; 
        cout << "halving remaining = " << unmod_ecl << endl;
        ++i;
    }
    
    total = total + unmod_ecl;
    cout << endl << endl << total << " ECL golden rule" << endl << total*2/3 << " CR" << endl;
    return 0;
}
 
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paradox42

Visitor
Upper_Krust said:
I think that when CR exceeds the HD modifier, you need to reduce it each time.

Using the Neutronium Golem as an example. ECL 28,989 (unmodded). HD 87.5.

So the first 175 is untouched, remainder halved = 14,407

Second 175 (350) removed, remainder halved = 7116

Third 175 (525) removed, remainder halved = 3470

4th 175 (700) removed, = 1647

5th 175 (875) removed = 736

6th 175 (1050) removed = 280

7th 175 (1225) removed = +52

Total ECL 1277 = CR 851

Neutronium Golem New CR = 851.
...I totally don't see where these numbers are coming from. What's this "HD modifier" you mention? What does 175 have to do with the Neutronium Golem? It has 250 HD in my copy of the Bestiary. And how was ECL 28,989 calculated? And how do you know how many times to remove the modifier and halve the remainder? Do you just keep doing it until the remainder is less than the number you're "setting aside" each time, or what?
 

Fieari

Explorer
paradox42 said:
...I totally don't see where these numbers are coming from. What's this "HD modifier" you mention? What does 175 have to do with the Neutronium Golem? It has 250 HD in my copy of the Bestiary. And how was ECL 28,989 calculated? And how do you know how many times to remove the modifier and halve the remainder? Do you just keep doing it until the remainder is less than the number you're "setting aside" each time, or what?
Golem HD are worth .35 each. 250 * .35 = 87.5, which is the "HD modifier".

Now, in the ideal world, the HD modifier would equal all the other stuff, so we're allowing for 87.5 + 87.5 = 175 ECL without modification. Everything else needs to get halved, so take 28,989 (total unmodified ECL, which I assume is being calculated out with v6), subtract 175 (that we aren't halving) which equals 28,814. This, we halve, which equals 14,407.

Now, we're keeping the first 175 set to the side, and then compare our theoretical optimal situation to the new number to the side. 175 is smaller than 14,407, so we take another 175 out of 14,407 (which equals 14,232) and halve it (which equals 7,116). We've set aside 175 twice, so now "in the background" we have 350.

We keep doing this, setting aside 175 and halving the remainder, until the remainder is smaller than 175. Then we add together all the stuff we set aside to the new remainder, and that's the result. It's a compound golden rule, so to speak.
 

paradox42

Visitor
Thanks for the responses. It was the transformation of 250 into 175 that I wasn't getting, I suppose- the rest of it worked out exactly as I thought it was from the numbers UK posted. Seems rather abstract, and potentially iffy, to me- but then again, we're dealing with truly stratospheric monsters here, like an animated neutron star. :)

What we really need to do is playtest and confirm that the numbers work out as they should, and of course that's what Ascension is for. Once it's done.

Back to making the Portfolios for my newly-minted Prophet PC, I suppose...
 

paradox42

Visitor
Actually, before I go...

For those who don't have a C++ compiler handy, I went ahead and wrote out a quick web page with JavaScript that performs essentially the same function, though I based it on the idea that you have X HD of "creature type" Y (which together would determine the HD input for Fieari's program). "Class levels" is, of course, a creature type, so you can deal with stuff like the Hulking Hurler or even Pun-Pun himself; the HD multiplier for class levels is 1.0 since the CR is theoretically supposed to be equal to HD for them.

So, just put in the numbers on the form, select the appropriate creature type (i.e. for the Neutronium Golem it's Construct (no INT)), and click the button.

Page tested in IE 6 and Netscape 7- on Netscape the output display is screwy because I can't get it to properly display carriage return characters, but in IE it formats nicely. Hopefully Foxfire actually does what it's supposed to with newline/return characters and starts a new freaking line. :mad:

Anyway, here it is, ZIPped up for convenience of attachment. Enjoy.
 

Attachments

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey guys! :)

Don't be getting too carried away with my solution to the Neutronium Golems CR. I'm not sure it was correct.

After all, it doesn't change the Orichalcum Leviathans CR by any great extent and I think it is less powerful than the Neutronium Golem.

So consider what I typed earlier merely work in progress. :heh:
 

paradox42

Visitor
Eh, the program's easy enough to adjust when necessary. Just need to see v6 of the Challenge Ratings appendix, and whatever final method you come up with.

On that note, the Neutronium Golem's extra power relative to the Leviathan comes from two places: first, its bigger hit die, and second, its extra VSCs. Perhaps those need to figure in to the calculation of "HD Modifier" somehow, to determine what portion of the EL is "kept back" for the recursive part of the calculation? For example, I'd certainly call a d1000 hit die more powerful than a d10 hit die, which is what normal Constructs get. So perhaps the multiplier of 0.35 isn't correct. Of course, this would mean the Orichalcum Leviathan's multiplier is higher too, though not as high as the neutron star, since it gets d100.

I do understand that they're abilities of the various divine tiers, but I'm just saying maybe their addition to CR adds more than once (in effect), unlike other such abilities.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hi paradox dude! :D

paradox42 said:
Eh, the program's easy enough to adjust when necessary. Just need to see v6 of the Challenge Ratings appendix, and whatever final method you come up with.

On that note, the Neutronium Golem's extra power relative to the Leviathan comes from two places: first, its bigger hit die, and second, its extra VSCs. Perhaps those need to figure in to the calculation of "HD Modifier" somehow, to determine what portion of the EL is "kept back" for the recursive part of the calculation? For example, I'd certainly call a d1000 hit die more powerful than a d10 hit die, which is what normal Constructs get. So perhaps the multiplier of 0.35 isn't correct. Of course, this would mean the Orichalcum Leviathan's multiplier is higher too, though not as high as the neutron star, since it gets d100.

I do understand that they're abilities of the various divine tiers, but I'm just saying maybe their addition to CR adds more than once (in effect), unlike other such abilities.
Possibly, but I don't see how incorporating the bigger Hit Dice helping me rebalance the Neutronium and Orichalcum constructs CRs vis-a-vis the Time Lords.

It is a thorny issue to be sure.

Clearly the problem lies with virtual size categories. Perhaps I should just take each as a divine ability (as per Divine Immensity). Although off the top of my head that looks like it could make the CRs too low...?
 
I don't think the larger Hit die are much of an issue. Its not like having the bigger Hit die grant even better saves or 2/1 Bab progression. The bigger Hit die just mean the monster is tougher. Rating the CR using Ascension should be accurate enough.

As for virtual size: It clearly favors fighter-types. The only thing slightly unbalancing about the VSCs are the scaling natural Armor bonuses. After about 5 or so VSCs, the creature has insane AC. (Except touch attacks get 'em)

The best bet might be just to weight VSCs on their STR, DEX and CON mods. (What is that weight anyway? 6 or 12 ability mods = 1 LA / 1 CR? Looking at 17 total mods, so about a +1, since the Nat AC isnt always useful. The wielding heavier weapons might also be worth +1 too...)
 

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