Pushing Really Big things

[BobTheNob]

Is there any rules regarding push (or pull) effects vs very large targets. Lets say I have a Gargantuan Red Dragon, by my take the sheer size of him would dictate that he has at least some inherent resistance to push/pull, even though nothing is listed.

Yes/No? Anyone had experience with? Alternate approaches?

 

[cstyln]

if i was dming this situation with a garagantuan thing, i would have to say probably no. If the hero attempting this had a ton of str / athletics, had some sort of magical effect from an item / buff, and rolled 2-3 consecutive 20's, then i might let him / her push a gargantuan dragon / thing. I try to let my pc's do what they want, but if i dont draw a line on reasonable situations, it's makes my job a ton harder.

 

[UltimaGabe]

With the exception of certain powers (such as Tide of Iron, which can only be used one a creature up to one size category larger than you) there's no limit on how large of a creature can be pushed, pulled, or slid, as per RAW.

It is especially ridiculous when you use Footwork Lure (Martial Power, Fighter At-Will, you shift one square and slide the target into the space you left) on a gargantuan creature. It can cause so many ridiculous scenarios it's funny.

In other words, it desperately needs an errata or something.

 

[Cadfan]

I wouldn't worry about it. A gargantuan creature moving one space is like me moving what, six inches?

 

[Flipguarder]

Say you are on the edge of a cliff, you use foot work lure on a tarrasque (i love how broken things always work on this guy). He switches places with you and guess what, he is now falling off a cliff because most of him is not on the ground.

Not terribly broken due to the +5 to saves but still kinda stupid that can happen with an at will.

 

[Garthanos]

Most all of the pull, slide etc effects mean you fool/bluff/seduce the creature in to following your lead...(in other words it makes no hill of beans if they are gargantuan) and thinking you looked just off balance enough ... to be a good bite.
Has nobody on this forum ever have played football ?... foot work lure is very easy and footwork luring a creature so it tumbles off a cliff is perfect... I don't see anything wrong with it.... its why you were fighting there on the cliffs edge in the first place. Note also the more confident the adversary the easier it is to lure them.

The fog of war can float both ways it is very easy to lose track of exactly where you are in face of trying to maintain weapon reach and other complexities in the deadly dance... the player see all... the characters are still vulnerable.

 

[N0Man]

With the exception of certain powers (such as Tide of Iron, which can only be used one a creature up to one size category larger than you) there's no limit on how large of a creature can be pushed, pulled, or slid, as per RAW.

It is especially ridiculous when you use Footwork Lure (Martial Power, Fighter At-Will, you shift one square and slide the target into the space you left) on a gargantuan creature. It can cause so many ridiculous scenarios it's funny.

In other words, it desperately needs an errata or something.

Why is this ridiculous?

Have we forgotten that rules for 4E powers do not generally enforce a narrative? Sure the effect of the power forces the gargantuan creature to move, but the narrative doesn't require that the character somehow physically push or pull the creature.

In fact, even if you ignore the name of the effect (since names don't affect rules), the flavor text even suggests that you are backing up and luring the enemy to follow you (not forcefully pulling him). Of course, flavor text aren't enforceable either, but it's a suggestion that is reasonable and believable.

If this power is ridiculous, the problem is in your narrative, not the power. It's only ridiculous if your version of the story makes it ridiculous. WotC can't errata your imagination.

 

[Flipguarder]

Ok you nay-nay-sayers. How about a more mechanical problem.

Does the monster, the player or the DM decide which square of a larger than medium creature is replaced with the fighter using foot-work lure. And how would a good DM decide such things.

 

[Garthanos]

Big creatures center of gravity is now moved to the edge of cliff and has to make a save or tumble off (if he does tumble no problem if he doesnt) if the pc doesnt have room to fit one space away from his original position will find himself scrambling a greater than one space distance... this extra shifting may force a save against being knocked off balance by the beasts mass and may grant ca but likely just suffering a -2 on defenses due to unusual/unexpected amount of movement... that is my off the cuff ruling... if it sounds a touch like page 42's DM's best friend, mayhaps it is meant to.

 

[Garthanos]

Computers crash and hang and blue screen if they dont have every little bit spelled out... the DM shouldn't. The rules cover a lot.. but dont let that fool you -- your decisions are vital to keep life interesting. Also hang a halo of being on the players side on your head... it helps, give them what they want but give them challenges too.
I balanced monster save to not topple with pc being force moved further in.

The PC might make an athletics check or acrobatics to better control there character's location.. I might not have thought of it initially but either way. <shrug />