Question About Epic Spell Slots

[the Jester]

If I have the Epic Spellcasting feat and enough ranks in the relevent skill to have 2 epic slots/day, can I fill those with "normal" spells of levels 0-9 if I don't know any epic spells?

Thanks!

 

[randomling]

Epic slots being of 10th level and above?

I guess so - same way you can prepare a 4th level (or lower) spell in a 5th level slot if you really want to. (I certainly remember my sorcerer casting fireballs out of 4th level slots when things got desperate...)

 

[Crothian]

Sure

 

[James McMurray]

I would say no. These are not "10th level spell slots" they are "Epic spell slots", only available for Epic spells. I don't have any rules to bak up my stane though.

 

[reiella]

I'd say no.

After all, do you want to effectively give your spellcasters a free Spell Slot of their highest level once they reach 7th level? Epic Spell Slots are defined as obtained for every 10 ranks in the appropiate Knowledge skill (although Epic Spellcastings does conflict slightly with that, implying that you gain the epic slots from the skill AND the feat).

There is some in-rules support for the belief/assumption that you can't 'trade down' epic spell slots in the ELH however. Epic Spells are defined to require a completely seperate progression from normal spell slots.

After reading the section, I'm really fairly certain that you cannot use it as a free spellslot (For one thing, it kinda weakens the viability of Increased Spell Capacity).

 

[the Jester]

I was thinking of it as being akin to taking an 8th-level spell in your 9th-level slot, but I can definitely see that it's a completely seperate progression.

reiella, I read epic spellcasting (the feat) as being the requirement and the ranks in the appropriate skill as determining how many slots you get.

If you only let 'standard' (0-9) level spells be taken in the slots does it still impact Improved Spell Capacity?

 

[reiella]

I was thinking of it as being akin to taking an 8th-level spell in your 9th-level slot, but I can definitely see that it's a completely seperate progression.

reiella, I read epic spellcasting (the feat) as being the requirement and the ranks in the appropriate skill as determining how many slots you get.

If you only let 'standard' (0-9) level spells be taken in the slots does it still impact Improved Spell Capacity?

Again, as I said, it actually conflicts within the text of the rules .

The feat description implies that, but the definition of epic spell slots (given in that section) neglects that requirement, and as such, I typically see as a redundant statement in the Special text for the feat (rule's priority, definition of term ). May be fixed in the 3.5 epic rules, but I'm too lazy to check.

If you just allow 0-9 it just destroys the usefulness of (admittantly NON-epic) Extra Slot feat.

Further, if you consider the interaction between Epic Psionics and Epic Spells, the psionic option takes a considerable beating to its versatility (as Epic Manifestation also grants Spell Slots instead of Epic Power Points).

I wish I had thought of the psionic relation earlier though, it shows the intent of keeping epic spell slots and non-epic spell slots seperate to me rather plainly.

 

[green slime]

Well, I think I'd allow it.

Because any spellcaster taking Epic Spellcasting is almost unable to create any Epic spells at all, until well beyond 25th level. Seriously looking at he expected resources of a 40th level spellcaster (monetary, and XP), and you see that there aren't many Epic Spells he could possibly know or cast.

You can't compare pre-Epic feats with Post Epic feats.

And using the Epic Psionic Rules as some sort of reasoning just doesn't cut it, when in a book of poorly thought out rules, the psionics rules leap out as particularly ill-thought.

1) In order to have three Epic level slots, you need to be at least 27th level and maxed out Knowledge (Arcana).
2) In order to cast 10th level spells you must have taken the Improved Spellcasting Capacity as well. At least 23rd level (as you must take Epic Spellcasting as well)
3)In order to gain an extra 10th level slot you need 30 in your spellcasting ability.
4)Now they have removed the ability to stack multiples of a single metamagic feat into a spell, there is a maximum limit to the number of spell levels beyond 9th that is feasibly attainable: that is the level beyond which you can no longer add any more metamagic feats to the spell(s). Improved Heighten is all that there is left. After a while you must ask yourself: Is it worth taking Imp. Sp. Capacity just to raise the spell DC by 1? Or are there other more spectacular feats available? (Multispell anyone?)

So at 23rd level, you'd have a Wizard casting 4 10th level spells (1 Imp Sp. Cap. + Int +Epic spells) instead of 2 10th and 2 11th (if he has 32 Int and took Imp. Sp. Cap. twice).

So yeah, in my game, I'd let some poor guy use any of his Epic Spellcasting slots to power "ordinary" spells

 

[glass]

Well, I think I'd allow it.

Because any spellcaster taking Epic Spellcasting is almost unable to create any Epic spells at all, until well beyond 25th level. Seriously looking at he expected resources of a 40th level spellcaster (monetary, and XP), and you see that there aren't many Epic Spells he could possibly know or cast.

You can't compare pre-Epic feats with Post Epic feats.

And using the Epic Psionic Rules as some sort of reasoning just doesn't cut it, when in a book of poorly thought out rules, the psionics rules leap out as particularly ill-thought.

1) In order to have three Epic level slots, you need to be at least 27th level and maxed out Knowledge (Arcana).
2) In order to cast 10th level spells you must have taken the Improved Spellcasting Capacity as well. At least 23rd level (as you must take Epic Spellcasting as well)
3)In order to gain an extra 10th level slot you need 30 in your spellcasting ability.
4)Now they have removed the ability to stack multiples of a single metamagic feat into a spell, there is a maximum limit to the number of spell levels beyond 9th that is feasibly attainable: that is the level beyond which you can no longer add any more metamagic feats to the spell(s). Improved Heighten is all that there is left. After a while you must ask yourself: Is it worth taking Imp. Sp. Capacity just to raise the spell DC by 1? Or are there other more spectacular feats available? (Multispell anyone?)

So at 23rd level, you'd have a Wizard casting 4 10th level spells (1 Imp Sp. Cap. + Int +Epic spells) instead of 2 10th and 2 11th (if he has 32 Int and took Imp. Sp. Cap. twice).

So yeah, in my game, I'd let some poor guy use any of his Epic Spellcasting slots to power "ordinary" spells

Sorry, but I can't follow your reasoning here. Most of your assertions appear to be true, but don't seem to have a great deal of baring on whether you should allow 0-9th level spells in epic slots. In point 2 you seem to suggesting you need both Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity to use either, which isn't my reading.

Maybe I'm just being thick, but either I'm not understanding your post, or one of us isn't understanding the epic spellcasting system.


glass.

 

[green slime]

Sorry, but I can't follow your reasoning here. Most of your assertions appear to be true, but don't seem to have a great deal of baring on whether you should allow 0-9th level spells in epic slots. In point 2 you seem to suggesting you need both Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity to use either, which isn't my reading.

Maybe I'm just being thick, but either I'm not understanding your post, or one of us isn't understanding the epic spellcasting system.


glass.

You aren't understanding my post. Because in the very first sentance I state

"I think I'd allow it."

In other words, if a player asked me to let his character memorize/use his epic spell slots to memorize standard spells (with or without metamagic, even at a level higher than 9th), I'd allow it.

Of course, in this scenario (my allowing it) you would still have to have access to the level of spell you wished to store in your Epic spell slot. So if the player wanted to memorize a 10th level spell in his Epic spell slot, they would be required to have taken Improved Spellcasting Capacity at least once, and have 30 Intelligence.

Finally, at the end of the post, I show that allowing such a character to do this, does not in any way "weaken" Improved Spellcasting Capacity.

I personally think Epic Spellcasting is a particularly bad choice for a feat at "low" Epic levels, due to the enormous cost in time, xp, and gold. Allowing it this versatility at least encourages PCs to try it out and not feel that they have wasted an entire feat for many, many levels.