Question About Epic Spell Slots

[James McMurray]

Also note that in a campaign setting, epic buff spells by the RAW are more powerful than the spell that Pax listed. The party spellcasters can lower the DC by participating in rituals. Leadership can get you more spell slots. Increasing the casting time to days can make duration vastly longer or effects even more powerful.

Look at this spell (just an increase to Pax's spell)

<b>Lunar Inspiration</b>
  Transmutation
  Spellcraft DC: 13
  Components: V,S
  Casting Time: 100 days + 11 minutes
  Range: Creature Touched
  Target: Creature Touched
  Duration: Permanent
  Saving Throw: none
  Spell Resistance: No
  To Develop: 117,000gp; 117 days; 4,680xP.

  Summary of Factors ...
	* Seed (Fortify), +1 enhancement ............ + 17
	* increase bonus to +45 ..................... + 88
	* permanent duration ............................ x5
	* increase casting time by +10m ............. - 20
	* increase casting time by 100 days....... -200
	* burn 2,000XP per casting .................. - 20
	* Seed within Specialist School ............. -  5
	* Donated 9th level slot ..........................-17 (cohort)
	* Donated 50 3rd level slots ..........................-150 (5th + level followers and purchased castings)
	* Donated 100 1st level slots ..........................-100 (3rd and lower level followers)


	This spell provides a +45 enhancement bonus to the
  one of the target's attributes (whatever that
  attribute may be).

That doesn't even account for using 2nd level spell slots or there being other spellcasters in the party. It also doesn't come anywhere near using the 590 1st level spellcaster followers that an epic character can have with only a 35 leadership score.

People are constantly saying that epic spells are useless, when in reality the system as written is broken beyond belief.

Is time an issue, and you do't know of a plane where it flows at a much faster rate? Just drop the casting time down to a standard action and use more followers' spell slots. In just under a week the entire party can have +45 enhancement bonuses to all of their attributes.

Don't have leadership, or don't want to blow the game wide open by using it for Epic Spellcasting? Get rid of the permanent duration and instead just enlist the aid of the other party spellcaster. I know a lot of epic spellcasters that would trade 2 9th level slots for a+45 to their asting attribute or their constitution. Increase the duration up to 48 hours instead of 24 and you'll actually gain bonus spell slots, more than making up for the one you used to cast the spell the first time.

 

[Will]

Woops, misread the bit about epic spell slots.

But, as mentioned previously, there are plenty of low level epic spells to be used.

 

[reiella]

No, he would have 2 slots. It goes off the highest number of ranks, not the total number.

Also incorrect.

You gain epic bonus slots from all appropiate knowledge skills.

There is a specific example of a Wizard/Cleric with Epic Spellcasting getting 2 Arcane epic-spell slots (from Knowledge (Arcane)) and 3 Divine epic-spell slots (from Knowledge (religion)).

I believe there was either errata or clarification for specifically how it would apply for a druid/cleric with Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Religion).

[ Side Comment ]
Well my intent is that 10+th aren't "epic spellslots" (and if that impression came from me, I apologize, it's a 2e antiquity).

Further, remember, Enhance doesn't suck nearly so much anymore thanks to Metamagic stacking rules .

 

[green slime]

Pax stated
Since the Fortify seed doesn't say you have to name a sINGLE attribute for it to improve - there's no reason why you couldn't have ONE epic spell ("+30 enhancement to single attribute of choice"), and cast it four times. For, say, a Cleric ... Wisdom, Strength, Constitution, and Charisma (especially if they have the Mysticism prestige domain, or two levels of Paladin, or whatever). For a Wizard, Intelligence, Constitution, Dexterity, and maybe Wisdom for ungodly will saves.

There is actually; it must pass DM approval. This is completely unpredictable and campaign-specific.

And seems alot of xp to spend per casting on what will basically be blown away the first time someone with Mord's Disjunction wanders by. Unless of course there is some errata about this. There may well be.

 

[James McMurray]

There is actually; it must pass DM approval. This is completely unpredictable and campaign-specific.

That's true of everything, not just Epic spells.

And seems alot of xp to spend per casting on what will basically be blown away the first time someone with Mord's Disjunction wanders by. Unless of course there is some errata about this. There may well be.

As was stated before: Rod(s) of Excellent Magic. If you are casting 4 epic spells per day, you're at least level 37. At that level 635,000gp x 4 for some rods is a pittance, escially when each rod is worth +30 to a stat.

 

[Kerrick]

Kerric: Intensified Meteor Swarm (16th level slot);

Intensified Fortified(+10) Transdimensional Meteor Swarm (27th level slot);

Improved Heightened (+10) Intensified Fortified (+10) Transdimensional Meteor Swarm (37th level slot);

Twin Repeat Improved Heightened (+10) Intensified Fortified (+10) Transdimensional Meteor Swarm (44th level slot);

I'll accede the point, even though I've never heard of any of those feats (except for heighten).

Also incorrect.

You gain epic bonus slots from all appropiate knowledge skills.

There is a specific example of a Wizard/Cleric with Epic Spellcasting getting 2 Arcane epic-spell slots (from Knowledge (Arcane)) and 3 Divine epic-spell slots (from Knowledge (religion)).

I believe there was either errata or clarification for specifically how it would apply for a druid/cleric with Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Religion).

Ah. I just saw something that supported my point the other day, but I don't recall where. I thought it was an erratum, but it might have been someone just saying "this is how we do it". I'll have to see if I can find it again...

 

[Pax]

There is actually; it must pass DM approval. This is completely unpredictable and campaign-specific.

Straw man - that holds true for everything in the campaign, even "how do we generate our ability scores".

And seems alot of xp to spend per casting on what will basically be blown away the first time someone with Mord's Disjunction wanders by. Unless of course there is some errata about this. There may well be.

Okay, only three buff spells ... and a Ward seed epic spell rendering a 10' radius around you specifically and totally immune to Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Disjoin (from DLCS), Greater Dispel Magic, and Dispel Magic.

... you were saying ... ? ^_^

FWIW, the "screw you, you have no magic" effect of MDJ is grossly and ludicrously overpowered, and was the first thing to get nerfed (but good) in the Exodus.

 

[Pax]

I'll accede the point, even though I've never heard of any of those feats (except for heighten).

Improved Heighten Spell (+variable levels) and Intensify Spell (+7 levels) are both Epic metamagics, right in the ELH.

Twin Spell (+4 levels) is from Tome and Blood; it makes the spell happen twice, at the same instant.

Repeat Spell (+3 levels) is also from Tome and Blood, and makes the spell go off a second time ... the next round.

Transdimensional Spell (+1 level) is from Unapproachable East, and it makes teh spell take effect on all coterminous planes (so being ethereal or incorporeal, or for that matter in the shadow plane or astral plane, is no defense ...).

Fortify spell (+variable level) is also from Unapproachable East ... every level you add to the spell slot requirement, gives you a +2 bonus to penetrate Spell Resistance with that spell.

 

[green slime]

Straw man - that holds true for everything in the campaign, even "how do we generate our ability scores".


Okay, only three buff spells ... and a Ward seed epic spell rendering a 10' radius around you specifically and totally immune to Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Disjoin (from DLCS), Greater Dispel Magic, and Dispel Magic.

... you were saying ... ? ^_^

FWIW, the "screw you, you have no magic" effect of MDJ is grossly and ludicrously overpowered, and was the first thing to get nerfed (but good) in the Exodus.

so, with 4 epic level spells developed, the character can no longer be characterized as "low" epic level.... Which was what I was saying all along: at the low end of the epic scale, a spellcaster would be wise to choose another feat.

However, should a character IMC at such a level nevertheless choose that feat, I'd allow them to cast non-epic spells from their epic spell slots, to the limit of their spell levels. Because it is hardly overpowered use of the ability

Which was my point to begin with, as is in line with the original question posed in the original post.

Yes, I am aware of the rules and that this use of the epic spell slots is not allowed.

And it doesn't quite hold true for everything, as while the DM may change anything in his campaign, I would be more than mildly surprised if most of the spells in the PHB were changed, or I was told that my sorcerer couldn't have a spell on the sorcerer spell list. Yet, given the disaster that is the rule set of ELH, I'd expect a DM to rigourously examine any Epic Spell I wanted to introduce into the campaign. Which you are all too aware of, as they say as much in the ELH Epic spell section.

 

[James McMurray]

green slime: look at my example epic spell. A little tweaking would lower its DC to 1, so it only costs 9,000gp and 360xp to develop. Or you could convince your DM that epic spells can have 0 DCs, and create them in the middle of combat.

"Oh crap, there's no way we'll be able to get past that defense! Gandalf, help!" A few seconds of thought later and Gandalf has created a spell that suppresses the dreaded Oompa Loompa's DR of 100/- and SR of 300. Gandalf calls out for Merlin's help in his impromptu rtual, and they cast together. The spell extracts a horrible toll though, as XP loss and backlash tear into Gandalf's aged form. The wizard dies, but his friends' combined assault takes the Oompa Loompa out, saving all of Gullah Gullah Island. And of course, the next day the cleric True Resurrects our good friend Gandalf, without even needing 25,000gp.

The Epic spell system is a great idea, but poorly done. Many weak effects (a fireball has a base DC around 34) are way too expensive to develop. Many powerful effects (+30 permanently to a stat with a DC of 1) are way too cheap to develop.