Question About Epic Spell Slots

[Pax]

Well, I think I'd allow it.

Because any spellcaster taking Epic Spellcasting is almost unable to create any Epic spells at all, until well beyond 25th level. Seriously looking at he expected resources of a 40th level spellcaster (monetary, and XP), and you see that there aren't many Epic Spells he could possibly know or cast.

Not true, not in the slightest.

The Exodus is a 25th level arena, and plenty of our dedicated spellcasters take Epic Spellcasting - while direct combat Epic spells are rarer than rare due to the way Epic spell DC's are put together, buffs are incredibly common. For example, consider this Epic spell:

<b>Lunar Inspiration</b>
  Transmutation
  Spellcraft DC: 30
  Components: V,S
  Casting Time: 11 minutes
  Range: Personal
  Target: You
  Duration: 40 hours
  Saving Throw: none
  Spell Resistance: No
  To Develop: 270,000gp; 6 days; 10,800XP.

  Summary of Factors ...
    * Seed (Fortify), +1 enhancement ............ + 17
    * increase bonus to +30 ..................... + 58
    * change target to personal ................. -  2
    * increase casting time by +10m ............. - 20
    * +100% duration ............................ +  2
    * burn 2,000XP per casting .................. - 20
    * Seed within Specialist School ............. -  5

    This spell provides a +30 enhancement bonus to the
  caster's primary spellcasting attribute (whatever that
  attribute may be).  If the caster has more than one type
  of spellcasting ability, they must choose which attribute
  will benefit from each casting of this spell.

That's a +30 to Intelligence in the case of the character I clipped that from, for just under 11K experience (and a boatload of money, sure, but by 25th level, you shoudl have 2.1 million gold, anyway!).

And further, it was built in a place where having hordes of Adept-class followers, and a spellcasting cohort, isn't as helpful as it woudl be in a "classic" campaign - you're not allowed to benefit from the followers at all. Were that not the case, then another 50-100 points could easily have been trimemd off the DC (to be replaced with more Enhancement bonus ... +25 to +50 more!).

Finally, it was built in an arena which specifically has the rule "no adding entire DAYS to the casting time of epic spells" - so that particular point-mine is gone, too. This on top of the requirement that the duration be gotten up over 24 hours, irrespective of caster level, for any spell to have been cast, and thus be in place, before the start of a match. Epic or otherwise.

1) In order to have three Epic level slots, you need to be at least 27th level and maxed out Knowledge (Arcana).

... or Knolwedge (Religion) for clerics, or Knowledge(nature) for druids.

2) In order to cast 10th level spells you must have taken the Improved Spellcasting Capacity as well. At least 23rd level (as you must take Epic Spellcasting as well)

No, you do not need to take Epic Spellcasting to qualify for Improved Spellcasting Capacity. You need only the ability to cast one or more spells of the highest level available to a class.

4)Now they have removed the ability to stack multiples of a single metamagic feat into a spell, there is a maximum limit to the number of spell levels beyond 9th that is feasibly attainable: that is the level beyond which you can no longer add any more metamagic feats to the spell(s). Improved Heighten is all that there is left. After a while you must ask yourself: Is it worth taking Imp. Sp. Capacity just to raise the spell DC by 1? Or are there other more spectacular feats available? (Multispell anyone?)

Even if you're "over-slotting", if you have a suitably-improved attribute due to Epic spellcasting, you may be getting enough bonus spells of higher level to continue to justify Improved Spellcasting Capacity for many, many levels to come. The spell earlier? The 35th level incarnation of that character comes out with a 96 intelligence, if he recasts his epic spells (three of them, each one a buff of a different bonus type) once every three days (!!). That means he is receiving bonus spells through 43d spell level - yet he only has, so far, 12th level spells (the character is BIG into item crafting, so a lot of his feats went towards epic item crafting).

So at 23rd level, you'd have a Wizard casting 4 10th level spells (1 Imp Sp. Cap. + Int +Epic spells) instead of 2 10th and 2 11th (if he has 32 Int and took Imp. Sp. Cap. twice).

Epic spells are not 10th level spells to be thrown into the mix with non-epic spells. They are entirely seperate.

 

[Will]

I think the important issue is that epic spells count as 10th level spells only for the purpose of other effects, like saves. I don't think they are meant to actually be 10th level slots, or they'd use that language.

There is also no indication that you could, for example, use metamagic on an epic spell.

Among other things, as was previously mentioned, there'd be little point for improved spellcasting capacity.

Among useful epic spells at low levels:
Epic mage armor (Wow! +20 armor). DC 46, so by level 20 you could probably pull it off. Say 20 base Int, +5 inherent, +6 item, so at least 31, +10 to Spellcraft which is at 23, so need to roll 13 or higher. At level 24, can take 10.

Ruin. Super powered disintegrate with huge range, but XP cost. DC 27, so easily done by just about any character with high Spellcraft.

Peripety, DC 27, also fairly easy. Deflects ranged attacks.

Sure, options are limited, but you can get some fairly respectable effects at low levels.

Oh, and realize that Epic Slots use _all_ those knowledges. A 20th level wizard could have 6 epic slots if he had 20 ranks each of Knowledge (arcana, nature + religion).

 

[green slime]

"2) In order to cast 10th level spells you must have taken the Improved Spellcasting Capacity as well. At least 23rd level (as you must take Epic Spellcasting as well) "

Pax stated
No, you do not need to take Epic Spellcasting to qualify for Improved Spellcasting Capacity. You need only the ability to cast one or more spells of the highest level available to a class.

I was talking about the hypothetical situation of allowing a character to memorize ordinary, non-epic spells (even beyond 9th...) in an epic spell slot (slots with no set "level", that are btb, not available for any ordinary spell whatsoever): If you are going to allow the character to do this, they will need to have Improved Spellcasting Capacity for access to 10th level spells (for the "even beyond 9th level part" , AND Epic spell casting to actually have an Epic spell slot. Obviously I did not state this clearly enough in my original post. I apologise. I was actually trying to state, in answer to the original poster: Yes, I would allow this. Regardless of what the rules in the hodge-podge that is ELH state.

And the creation of whatever Epic Spell in an arena event is hardly any measure by what a DM would or may allow: most of the spell DC's in the book are contradictory anyway.

The spell costs 10% of your entire wealth to develop, and casting it once, together with the development of it has set you back almost half a level (given 25th level, but it would seem that the character in question was indeed beyond 30th....

The 35th level incarnation of that character comes out with a 96 intelligence

So at least a haul of 198 Epic level encounters to get that far...so taking this feat and developing this spell early in your Epic career may not be the best of solutions, as I alluded to earlier). The development of those three spells (if the same) cost the character more than 30,000 xp, and 750,000 gp, and nearly three weeks of time.

Epic spells are not 10th level spells to be thrown into the mix with non-epic spells. They are entirely seperate.

I am aware of that fact, and yet, in my very first statement I state "I would allow it". Then I show that it, in fact is not some overpowered abuse of the feats power, and you roll along and tell me "they are entirely seperate." I know they are seperate. It is just that I feel, that it is a completely unnecessary nerf of the Epic spellcaster.

There are only a very limited number of Epic level spells even a 40th level spellcaster can afford to develop. A 40th level spellcaster could have 4 epic slots. Now if you do not have 4 epic spells to fill those slots with, would you as a DM shoot the player who wanted to use those extraneous slots for non-epic spells? And the 21st level newbie wizard? What is he going to do with his 2 epic spell slots?

 

[Will]

I'd also point out that there's not a lot of need to use epic spell slots for anything. It's not like a caster has paid much for them...

A wizard has maxed out Knowledge (arcana) and gets epic spell slots he can't use... so? It's not like he spent a feat or sacrificed to get those slots.

And, as I said, a 21st level newbie wizard can use Ruin and Peripety very very easily. A decent wizard should only fail to cast Ruin in combat (where you can't take 10) on a roll of 1.

 

[green slime]

I'd also point out that there's not a lot of need to use epic spell slots for anything. It's not like a caster has paid much for them...

A wizard has maxed out Knowledge (arcana) and gets epic spell slots he can't use... so? It's not like he spent a feat or sacrificed to get those slots.

And, as I said, a 21st level newbie wizard can use Ruin and Peripety very very easily. A decent wizard should only fail to cast Ruin in combat (where you can't take 10) on a roll of 1.

Ummmm..... Except He did have to use a feat to get those slots?

Namely the Epic Spell Casting feat, as described in the Epic Level Handbook? You have read it?

 

[Pax]

And the creation of whatever Epic Spell in an arena event is hardly any measure by what a DM would or may allow: most of the spell DC's in the book are contradictory anyway.

The creation of that spell is strictly by-the-book; all the Exodus says is "thou shalt not exceed X, nor add Y, nor benefit from X, when designing any epic spell".

The spell costs 10% of your entire wealth to develop, and casting it once, together with the development of it has set you back almost half a level (given 25th level, but it would seem that the character in question was indeed beyond 30th....

Rod of Excellent Magic - that 2,000XP only means having to buy a single item. An EXPENSIVE item, yes, but only the one.

And it's worth plus thirty to intelligence. Human, 18 base intelligence, +6 from level, and +5 from a Tome ... that's a 29(+9) intelligence. This raises that to 59(+24), a full 18(+9) higher than could be achieved with even the best Epic items (which would cost 1,440,000gp, by the way - XP cost aside, the spell is a bargain by comparison).

So at least a haul of 198 Epic level encounters to get that far...so taking this feat and developing this spell early in your Epic career may not be the best of solutions, as I alluded to earlier). The development of those three spells (if the same) cost the character more than 30,000 xp, and 750,000 gp, and nearly three weeks of time.

Actually the other two are more expensive - bonus types other than enhancement cost more in termsof DC. The +20/insight spell is DC 92, and much more costly. Between the three of them, some 69,000XP was spent, and a couple million GP (at ECL35, with 7,900,000gp expected wealth, a wizard spending 2Mgp on epic spells is no big deal ...).

There are only a very limited number of Epic level spells even a 40th level spellcaster can afford to develop. A 40th level spellcaster could have 4 epic slots.

Actually, a 37th level caster could have 4 epic slots, not just 40th. And my entire point is, there are PLENTY of Epic spells that are entirely worthwhile for csters well below 40th level.

Most of them being long-duration "bufs", mind, but "buff" can be for armor class, absolute immunity to certain spells (or entire LEVELS of spells, even), damage resistance, energy resistance, and so on.

Now if you do not have 4 epic spells to fill those slots with, would you as a DM shoot the player who wanted to use those extraneous slots for non-epic spells? And the 21st level newbie wizard? What is he going to do with his 2 epic spell slots?

Since the Fortify seed doesn't say you have to name a sINGLE attribute for it to improve - there's no reason why you couldn't have ONE epic spell ("+30 enhancement to single attribute of choice"), and cast it four times. For, say, a Cleric ... Wisdom, Strength, Constitution, and Charisma (especially if they have the Mysticism prestige domain, or two levels of Paladin, or whatever). For a Wizard, Intelligence, Constitution, Dexterity, and maybe Wisdom for ungodly will saves.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'd say epic slots are epic slots, not 10th-level spell slots. There's a Feat that gives you a 10th-level slot (can be taken more than once, and grants an 11th-level slot then, and a 12th-level slot after that, and so on)....I wouldn't allow anyone using those epic slots for non-epic spells.

 

[reiella]

Ummmm..... Except He did have to use a feat to get those slots?

Namely the Epic Spell Casting feat, as described in the Epic Level Handbook? You have read it?

Correction, he can only make USE of the feat (to cast Epic Spells) with the feat.

Read the epic spell section... The only contingent for gaining epic spell slots are your ranks in the appropiate knowledge skill.

You have read the epic spell section I hope too?

Again, given that there is NO possible way attempt to use Epic Spell Slots/Epic Psionic Slots as 'regular' Power Points, there is also little reason to suspect that it is supported by the rules (and attempts to do as such, should be read as house rules).

 

[Kerrick]

Oh, and realize that Epic Slots use _all_ those knowledges. A 20th level wizard could have 6 epic slots if he had 20 ranks each of Knowledge (arcana, nature + religion).

No, he would have 2 slots. It goes off the highest number of ranks, not the total number.

I'd say epic slots are epic slots, not 10th-level spell slots. There's a Feat that gives you a 10th-level slot (can be taken more than once, and grants an 11th-level slot then, and a 12th-level slot after that, and so on)....I wouldn't allow anyone using those epic slots for non-epic spells.

I agree with the first part of this, but the second part is technically incorrect. The slots you gain from ISC are not "epic" slots, but simply higher-level spell slots - you can't use those slots for epic spells, but you COULD use them for lower-level spells. With the restriction on stacking metamagic, though, there's no real reason to take ISC beyond two or possibly three times, unless you want to cast empowered meteor swarms (or maximized - whichever one is +4).

 

[Pax]

Kerric: Intensified Meteor Swarm (16th level slot);

Intensified Fortified(+10) Transdimensional Meteor Swarm (27th level slot);

Improved Heightened (+10) Intensified Fortified (+10) Transdimensional Meteor Swarm (37th level slot);

Twin Repeat Improved Heightened (+10) Intensified Fortified (+10) Transdimensional Meteor Swarm (44th level slot);

... there are ever so many reasons to take ISC more than 2-3 times.

Then there's the fact that with a REALLY high slot, ISC can give you 10-ish new spells per day ... !

The epic character whose spell I posted above, ends up with an Intelligence of 96. That gives him:

... 11 bonus spells for each of levels 1-3
... 10 bonus spells for each of levels 4-7
... 9 bonus spells for each of levels 8-11
... 8 bonus spells for each of levels 12-15
... 7 bonus spells for each of levels 16-19
... 6 bonus spells for each of levels 20-23
... 5 bonus spells for each of levels 24-27
... 4 bonus spells for each of levels 28-31
... 3 bonus spells for each of levels 32-35
... 2 bonus spells for each of levels 36-39
... 1 bonus spell for each of levels 40-43

IMO, as long as you're getting 3 bonus spells of a given level, ISC is still perfectly "worth it". So far that charcter has the ISC feat three times; if he were to take it again, he would get nine new spells per day (all of them 13th level slots). Given whan you can do with maximised and/or empowered spells of 7th+ level, that's no small increase to his total power ...