Question about S&S feat

[kobold]

Can someone clear up my confusion with the S&S feat Quicker than the Eye (or is it faster than the eye)? Basiclly this feat allows and extra attack, but can it be used with missile weapons?

 

[Galfridus]

Firstly, it doesn't give you an extra attack: it lets you take a partial action without being seen. The text is confusing and has been interpreted by many as giving you a free partial action during your turn, but that's not the case.

Secondly, since you are taking a partial action, you can do anything that will fit: melee, ranged attack, run down the street, untie someone's shoelaces...the possibilities are endless.

 

[FANGO]

Actually, what it does (as far as I can tell), is convert a move-equivalent into a partial action. So what you can do is take two attacks at your full BAB, take an attack and cast a spell in the same round, etc. etc.

 

[BlindKobold]

It's pretty simple actually.

You take your Move-equivelent action to "distract" an opponent, the opponent then makes a spot check vs. your bluff check and if the opponent fails, your standard action (attack, etc.) is made with the opponent loosing his/her DEX.

What does this mean?

Basically, it is a way of feinting as a Move-equivelent action instead of a standard action, thus allowing a rogue to make one sneak attack per round.

Now... if the rogue also has Combat Reflexes/Expert Tactician, as soon as the "feint" is successful, he gains and extra partial action attack in addition to his remaining partial/standard action... the sage has ruled that two partials make a full round action, therefore, the rogue could "feint" and then full attack with each attack being a sneak attack.

Really, not a bad combination of feats.

But in itself, Quicker than the Eye gives you NO EXTRA ACTIONS. It just allows you to make an attack or action unseen if you succeed.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

the sage has ruled that two partials make a full round action, therefore, the rogue could "feint" and then full attack with each attack being a sneak attack.

Makes sense, but where did you see this ruling?

--Excited Spikey

 

[BlindKobold]

Not sure what Dragon magazine it was in, but he was talking about casting a moving and casting a full round spell while hasted and basically stated that 2 partial actions = a full round action, so the person COULD move and cast a full round spell... or full attack... or whatever.

 

[Caliban]

It's pretty simple actually.

You take your Move-equivelent action to "distract" an opponent, the opponent then makes a spot check vs. your bluff check and if the opponent fails, your standard action (attack, etc.) is made with the opponent loosing his/her DEX.

What does this mean?

Basically, it is a way of feinting as a Move-equivelent action instead of a standard action, thus allowing a rogue to make one sneak attack per round.

This is correct.

Now... if the rogue also has Combat Reflexes/Expert Tactician, as soon as the "feint" is successful, he gains and extra partial action attack in addition to his remaining partial/standard action... the sage has ruled that two partials make a full round action, therefore, the rogue could "feint" and then full attack with each attack being a sneak attack.

This is completely incorrect.

A) You don't gain anything from Expert Tactician "as soon as the feint is successfull". Expert Tactician doesn't kick in until they lose their Dex bonus to AC, and feinting doesn't cause them to do that until you actually attack them. So even after a successfull feint, Expert Tactician won't trigger until you attack them normally.

B) The Sage did not rule that "Two Partials make a Full Round Action", what you are referring to is using a "Starting a Full Round Action" on page 127 of the PHB. This only applies to Miscellaneous Actions, and you can't use it for a Full Round attack action (because it's not on Table 8-4 Miscellaneous Actions). The Sage ruled that you could use a partial action to speed up the casting time of a full round spell, he made no such ruling about the full attack action.

C) Expert Tactician doesn't grant an extra partial action. It grants a single extra attack, which by itself is not a partial action. (This is in the Sword and Fist Errata.)

 

[BlindKobold]

This is completely incorrect.

Completely is a powerful word. One you have COMPLETELY misused in this particular situation. =)

A) You don't gain anything from Expert Tactician "as soon as the feint is successfull". Expert Tactician doesn't kick in until they lose their Dex bonus to AC, and feinting doesn't cause them to do that until you actually attack them. So even after a successfull feint, Expert Tactician won't trigger until you attack them normally.

Can you quote an official source to that ruling? I've seen it stated both ways... and as yet have seen nothing official contradicting me.

Also, I was referring to the QUICKER THAN THE EYE feat, not the standard feint, which is slightly different in usage and effect.

B) The Sage did not rule that "Two Partials make a Full Round Action", what you are referring to is using a "Starting a Full Round Action" on page 127 of the PHB. This only applies to Miscellaneous Actions, and you can't use it for a Full Round attack action (because it's not on Table 8-4 Miscellaneous Actions). The Sage ruled that you could use a partial action to speed up the casting time of a full round spell, he made no such ruling about the full attack action.

No, I was not referring to p127 of the PHB at all. As my post stated, I was referring to a Dragon Sage Advice where the sage stated that two partial actions can equal a full round action. He was talking about spells at the time, but the statement that two partial actions = 1 full round action is irregardless of the original topic. If a spell takes a full round action and a full attack takes a full round action, then they take the same amount of time. If you can do one during a double partial, you can do both, otherwise they are not equal... which they are... and you CAN refer to p127 I believe to see that they are in fact both full round actions and therefore equal in time.

C) Expert Tactician doesn't grant an extra partial action. It grants a single extra attack, which by itself is not a partial action. (This is in the Sword and Fist Errata.)

Admittedly, this is a "gray" area. In essence, you are being granted a partial action that is an attack. Can this be combined with another partial action to equal a full round attack? Until we get an official ruling, it's 6 of ones, half dozen of another.

So, as I stated earlier, COMPLETELY is a powerful word. Don't misuse it.

 

[Caliban]

originally stated by BlindKobold: Completely is a powerful word. One you have COMPLETELY misused in this particular situation.

I did not. I was correct in everything I stated.

Can you quote an official source to that ruling? I've seen it stated both ways... and as yet have seen nothing official contradicting me.

I can read the skill description on page 64 of the PHB, where it explicitly states that your target only loses their Dex against your next attack.

Until you make that attack, they still have their full Dex bonus.

Also, I was referring to the QUICKER THAN THE EYE feat, not the standard feint, which is slightly different in usage and effect.

Not that different. Quicker than the Eye let's you do a partial action, but they still don't lose their Dex bonus until you take that partial action.

It really doesn't matter either way for this particular application though, since you will be taking that partial action immediately after bluffing them, instead of on the next round the way it is with a normal feint.

No, I was not referring to p127 of the PHB at all. As my post stated, I was referring to a Dragon Sage Advice where the sage stated that two partial actions can equal a full round action. He was talking about spells at the time, but the statement that two partial actions = 1 full round action is irregardless of the original topic. If a spell takes a full round action and a full attack takes a full round action, then they take the same amount of time. If you can do one during a double partial, you can do both, otherwise they are not equal... which they are... and you CAN refer to p127 I believe to see that they are in fact both full round actions and therefore equal in time.

It doesn't matter if you were meaning to refer to page 127 or not, that's the rules that cover using two partial actions for a full round action, and it very clearly does not apply to the Full Attack Action.

The Sage cannot change the rules in the PHB, he can only offer clarifications. He made a rulling specifically regarding haste and full round spells. It doesn't apply to the Full Attack Action, and it wouldn't be a valid ruling even if he did say that it did.

That would be errata, and he can't release official errata.

Admittedly, this is a "gray" area. In essence, you are being granted a partial action that is an attack. Can this be combined with another partial action to equal a full round attack? Until we get an official ruling, it's 6 of ones, half dozen of another.

It's not a gray area at all. A single attack by itself is not a partial action. (A partial action can be used to make an attack, but the attack itself is not a partial action.)

An Attack of Opportunity is a single attack, and it is very clearly not a partial action.

A Speed weapon grants a single extra attack, and explicitly states that it is not an extra partial action.

The errata for Sword and Fist very specifically changed Expert Tactician from granting a Partial Action to granting a single extra Attack. The updated version of the feat in Song and Silence didn't change that, it just added Combat Reflexes as a prerequisite.

So, as I stated earlier, COMPLETELY is a powerful word. Don't misuse it.

I didn't.

 

[jontherev]

Caliban is correct...completely. QttE works just like bluff with regards to a foe losing their dex. I'd be more inclined to call the free attack from Expert Tactician a FREE ACTION than a partial action.