Question about Turning and Commanding

[candidus_cogitens]

How is it possible for an evil cleric to command undead that have more HD than he has levels? Help me with this. Here are the relevant passages from the SRD:

At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead combatant or combatants in order to command new ones.
Alternatively, an evil cleric may command a single undead combatant with more Hit Dice than he has levels, but he must concentrate continuously to do so (as in concentrating to maintain a spell), and he can command no other undead at the same time.

BUT . . .

Destroying Undead
If a combatant has twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, the combatant destroy any that the combatant would normally turn.

Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.

I don't see how you are supposed to determine whether an evil cleric succeeds at commanding it, or merely rebukes it when the creature has more HD than he has levels (or even more HD than HALF of his level, for that matter).

 

[Pielorinho]

How is it possible for an evil cleric to command undead that have more HD than he has levels?

The only thing I can think of would be an evil cleric with the sun domain -- but on rereading the domain power, it looks like this wouldn't work either:

Sun Domain

Granted Power: Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning (or rebuking) attempt. The greater turning is like a normal turning (or rebuking) attempt except that the undead creatures that would be turned (or rebuked or commanded) are destroyed instead.

Maybe they mean that commanding a powerful undead is an exception to the normal equivalency between destroying and commanding: if the cleric is willing to concentrate, she can command any single undead whom she is capable of rebuking.

Does this sound right to y'all?

Daniel

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Re: Re: Question about Turning and Commanding

Maybe they mean that commanding a powerful undead is an exception to the normal equivalency between destroying and commanding: if the cleric is willing to concentrate, she can command any single undead whom she is capable of rebuking.

Does this sound right to y'all?

Daniel

I think that sounds right, although it also sounds remarkably powerful. In theory, a first level cleric could command a Lich (13 HD) by rolling a 12 on his turning damage roll, and then adding 1 for his level, even without including a CHA bonus!!

 

[Pielorinho]

Re: Re: Re: Question about Turning and Commanding

I think that sounds right, although it also sounds remarkably powerful. In theory, a first level cleric could command a Lich (13 HD) by rolling a 12 on his turning damage roll, and then adding 1 for his level, even without including a CHA bonus!!

Although I agree it's powerful, I don't think it's that powerful. I'd rule that you need to be capable of rebuking the creature before you could command it, at the very minimum. There's no way I know of for a first-level cleric to roll high enough on his turn check to be able to turn/rebuke a 13-HD creature.

Daniel

 

[Force0]

Liches

A lich has a +4 turn resistance, witch is like having more HD, so a 13th level lich count as having 17HD, to "command" it, a cleric must 1) have half or more HD, so 9HD cleric, and 2)Perhaps it dosen't say so, but it must be able to turn it (lv 13 min) to affect it at all.

Anyway, this is my opinion, tare care! (fear clerical liches that can bolster themselves!!)

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Re: Liches

A lich has a +4 turn resistance, witch is like having more HD, so a 13th level lich count as having 17HD, to "command" it, a cleric must 1) have half or more HD, so 9HD cleric, and 2)Perhaps it dosen't say so, but it must be able to turn it (lv 13 min) to affect it at all.

Anyway, this is my opinion, tare care! (fear clerical liches that can bolster themselves!!)

You mean you can't turn a creature with more HD than your level?

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Question about Turning and Commanding

I think that sounds right, although it also sounds remarkably powerful. In theory, a first level cleric could command a Lich (13 HD) by rolling a 12 on his turning damage roll, and then adding 1 for his level, even without including a CHA bonus!!

The cleric must first make a turning check to see the highest HD he can effect. (PHB, page 139-140).

A cleric can turn/rebuke up to 4HD above his cleric level if he rolls well.

A 1st level cleric can affect a 5HD undead at most. A 13th level Lich counts as a 17 HD undead (Turn Resistance +4), so it would take a 13th level cleric rolling really well on the turn check to affect it.

The damage roll just tells him the number of HD he can effect, up to the maximum HD determined by the first turning check. (I.e. Your turning check tells you that you can effect up to 9 HD undead. You roll 21 on your Turning Damage, so you can turn two 9 HD undead and one 3 HD undead. Or you can turn multiple 3 HD undead, up to 21 HD total. If there were any 10 HD undead, they would be completely unaffected, even though you had rolled 21 HD worth of damage.)

The limit on commanding undead is probably in reference to undead created by the cleric himself, via the Create Undead spells, which allow you to command the undead you create with a simple turn/rebuke check.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about Turning and Commanding

A cleric can turn/rebuke up to 4HD above his cleric level if he rolls well.

Thanks Caliban. Silly of me!

Okay, so a lich cannot be commanded by a first level cleric. But what I still don't understand is this:

Let's say your evil 1st level cleric tries to affect a zombie with three HD, and both his turning check and his turning damage are high enough for him to do so. Is the zombie now rebuked or commanded? Is it completely up to the cleric to decide, or is there a rule that determines the outcome?

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about Turning and Commanding

Thanks Caliban. Silly of me!

Okay, so a lich cannot be commanded by a first level cleric. But what I still don't understand is this:

Let's say your evil 1st level cleric tries to affect a zombie with three HD, and both his turning check and his turning damage are high enough for him to do so. Is the zombie now rebuked or commanded? Is it completely up to the cleric to decide, or is there a rule that determines the outcome?

First, he has to be an evil cleric, or a Lawful Neutral cleric of certain deities.

If his cleric level is double the effective level of the undead (including turn resistance), the undead is commanded instead of rebuked.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about Turning and Commanding

First, he has to be an evil cleric, or a Lawful Neutral cleric of certain deities.

Huh? Any cleric who channels negative energy rebukes/commands undead.

That's any evil cleric, any cleric of an evil deity, and any non-good cleric of a neutral deity who elects to channel negative energy at first level (unless their deity prohibits it).

-Hyp.