[Quick!] Need help with Elven Rogue feats for 6th lvl, possible PrC also

[RedSwan78]

Hey all, I need help with Rogue feats for a 6th lvl Elven character. We've a new person in my gaming group (my gf!) and for the past 2 sessions she's been playing a Scout (it's a variant class out of the Mercenaries Handbook).. basically an archer-fighter. Problem is, she feels a bit useless she says, and that makes her uncomfortable in the gaming group.

Through talking to her, we've come up with the fact that she thinks a Rogue would be fun and *useful* to play! We have about 5 hours untill I won't have internet access anymore (leaving) to get ideas so we can create her character later tonight (it's Friday, 11am pst, 2pm est, so we have till 4pm pst and 7pm est)

She's going to be elven, we're using 32 point point-buy system. She'll probably buy either a 16 or 18 dex and elven will make that either 18 or 20. Since she's Elven, she gets to use the Elven ThinBlade as a weapon (in our campaign she does! hehe) and also since she's elven she'll get to use a LongBow instead of a CrossBow.

Feats:

We where thinking Weapon Finesse- Elven Thin Blade.
Beyond that, she has 2 more feats for being 6th lvl. A possibility for another could be Improved Init.. because, well going first rules as a rogue.. hehe. That leaves us with 1 more to chose, possibly 2 more if something would be better then Improved Init?
There's Point Blank and Precise, but, if she felt useless as an archer before, that's kind of redundant. But I'm not sure if she felt useless because that's *all* that she could do, or if she didn't like archery. ::shrugs::

Prestige Classes:

Can anyone make any good suggestions for PrC's? Or would she be better off just *staying* a Rogue? Rogue's do get those cool abilities at 10th lvl and up I think it is.. (Opportunist, Defensive Roll). Anyone have any good suggestions?

Please, if it doesn't come from the PhB or the "core" splat-books, we would need a desctiption of it and it's requirements.. Same thing for Feats as well.

She's never played a Rogue before, and she's still just kind of learning the 3E rules (although she's played 2E). We've figured she won't fell "useless" because of all the things Rogues can do, open locks, find/disable traps, Use Magic Device, Sneak Attack in combat, etc..

Thanks in advance! (I've given about all the info I know, so let the ideas flow freely in whatever direction you can think!)

 

[Gaiden]

For new players, it is probably best to keep things simple. Given that your gf already expressed dissatisfaction in being limited to certain abilities, a rogue is probably the perfect class for her.

So the math = simple with options.

If she gets the elven thin blade, I would defintely suggest taking Weapon Finesse. Weapon Finesse is one of the most powerful feats a melee oriented rogue can take.

A couple of other good feats would be:

Weapon Focus - thinblade
Improved Initiative
Great Fortitude (for those poison traps)
Point Blank Shot - good regardless of whether she takes any feats down the chain
Rapid Shot and Precise Shot if she does take feats down the line
Expertise - increases options
Dodge, Mobility Spring Attack - another good option for a rogue - move into flanking position and then out using tumble to avoid other's AoO.
Arterial Strike - (S&S) essentially gives you the wounding weapon ability for any attack at the cost of 1d6 SA dmg - more useful when fighting enemies with lots of HP
Hamstring - (S&S) reduces opponents movement by half (if trying to affect quadraped must be successfully down twice) by successful SA and subtacting 2d6 SA dmg. Especially useful with D, M, SA chain.
Quicker than the Eye - (S&S) can sneak every round regardless of whether you are flanking - dex19 prereq lets you bluff as a MEA to feint in combat.
Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician - get an extra attack every time opponent loses Dex bonus (limited to 1x/rd). Most useful with EWP - spiked chain so can take advantage of combat reflexes as well.

For simple I would say the best feats would be II, WFin, WF as they simply add bonuses to existing abilities.

However, Expertise, the SA chain or some of the others I listed would also be fine - it really depends on what she is looking to do.

One interesting combination is Wfin, WF, and PA. Power Attack will be quite useful combined with WF and PA and would allow the rogue to be quite effective even without her SA. An interesting way to make her have a bit more flexibility would be to add in a level of ranger so she can fight with 2 weapons if she wants. Also, that opens the option of using a dagger with the offhand which can also be thrown - leading down the throwing weapons route.

I would stick with straight rogue (or the 1 level of Ranger) for a new player rather than going towards PrC as that adds alot more complexity.

Just my 2 copper.

 

[Celebrim]

Improved Initiative has great synergy with the rogues sneak attack, and is almost a must for every character IMO. So definately go with that.

Alertness also has some synergy with sneak attack, and helps the thief serve the role of party eyes and ears better.

Dodge is fairly useful, and is the beginning of a sequence leading to Spring Attack.

Combat Reflexes is an all around useful feat for all characters, offering some protection when you are surprised and occassionally giving you extra attacks - such as when swarmed by tiny creatures like stirges, or when a horde of zombies tries to grapple you, etc.. Rogues high dex works great with combat reflexes.

Close Quarters Fighting and Expert Tactician are from S&F, but are two of the best feats in the game and definately you are going to want to take them eventually.

As far as multi-classing, stick with a level of ranger or a couple levels of fighter if you feel you need a little more combat ability. Otherwise, straight rogue is a pretty powerful class. The bonus abilities beginning at 10th level (opurtunist, improved evasion, defensive roll, etc.) are as good as anything a prestige class is going to offer.

How you build the rogue depends alot on the rest of the party and the campaign style. If the party is clanking around in platemail all the time engaging in alot of combat: concentrate on tumble, search, spot, listen, find/remove traps, descipher script, and open locks. Sneak and hide probably aren't going to do a whole lot of good if the rest of the party sticks out like a sore thumb. Escape artist is highly important for getting for getting out of grapples and should be on every rogues priority list. It won't hurt to have a few points in climb, jump, and balance for avoiding common dungeon obstacles (kinda depends on your DM), but in the long run you'll probably have magic items to handle the serious problems and in the near term, any skill check sufficiently difficult that your dex and a few points in a skill can't handle it is going to be way beyond the abilities of your comrades. If the rogue is going to be 'out on her own' alot, hunting down info for the party, bluff, diplomacy, sneak, hide, forgery, gather information, and all the other tools of spycraft can be alot of fun but its rough on a DM to run a split party like that.

Quite obviously, INT is the #2 stat for a rogue. My advice would be to save the points and begin with either 14 or 16 DEX (before modifiers), so that you have enough points for a decent CON (hard as an Elf) and a good INT. Wisdom is not to be underestimated either (it is the basis for alot of important skills, and effects the all important WILL saves that rogues have trouble with), and depending on your desired skill set and role, STR or CHR can be your dump stat.

 

[RedSwan78]

Oh, I should give the rest of the party as well:

1- 6th Elven Cleric
2- 5/1 PsyWar/Psion, Human
3- 6th Human Bard
4- 6th Human Wizard
5- 3rd Half-Celestial/Elven Rogue
6-Me- 3rd Half-Dragon/Human Fighter with spiked chain that focuses on tripping (and soon) disarming people


Good suggestions so far! The main thing we need to do is keep it simple enough for her to understand, but not soo simple that she'll get bored! Kinda figured Weapon Finesse-ThinBlade would be the *best* feat that she could pick up.

We've also done the NeverWinterNights thing with Toughness, you gain 1 extra hit point per lvl. If taken at first lvl, that would equal 6 extra hit points by now, and one more hit point each lvl. Basically, it's like having an extra con bonus, but without the addition to Fort saves and other Con related things, just an extra HP per lvl. Might that be good for her since Con will be limited for her as an elf?

She wouldn't be going off on her own much at all.. we really haven't done that in the past.. I mean she might in the future, but just giving the history of our game. We *just* got down into pretty much our first Dungeon Crawl. Before this it's all been little missions here and there above ground vs. other lvl'd people, and very few monsters. I think we're seeing the change of that now though.

You know what, I just looked over Power Attack, and I consider this to be one of the most *useless* feats sometimes, BUT, it COULD work for a Rogue who needs to HIT so that the sneak attack dmg does most of the dmg.. hmm.. that's an option.. Wow, jsut read over Close Quarters Fighting.. that's pretty damn good too! hehe..

Thanks for the EXCELLENT replies so far! Keep em coming!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

my tuppence, for what they're worth (2cp?)

The whole affair depends on what kind of rogue she wants to play (I try to stay with core material):

First, I agree with Gaiden in what you don't need a PrC: it only makes things more complex, and straight rogues are fun enough (with the high-level abilities).

Combat-oriented rogue.

If she wants a combat-oriented rogue, you might want to consider another class: Rokugans Ninja, available here as a free sneak peak of the book. It gains in combat abilities (including a fighter's BAB), but loses in non-combat related matters (no trap detection, less skill points) and doesn't get evasion. You have to get your DM's OK for that though, since it might be considered to powerful without the roleplaying restrictions (in Rokugan, a ninja must not let others know what they are, or they are dead).

You might also consider mixing the levels of rogue with levels of fighter or ranger (or barbarian), to gain more HP and a slightly better BAB.

Melee-Rogue:
I'd consider seriously going the way of the two-weapon fighter here: You'll take ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting then (or go the dirty way and take one level of ranger, and get those for free). This way you'll deal considerable damage. You won't mind that the weapons are weaker than others and that the off-hand only gets 0.5 Str, since the bonus dice from sneak attack will make up for it. You'll also like to take Weapon Finesse for the weapon(s) you use, since that provides with a nice bonus to attack. To save on feats, you might consider fighting with two light weapons instead of a combo of one-handed and light.

Ranged Rogue:
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot are good. Try to get something to remain unseen (either get the party wizard to cast improved invis on you, or get really good at hiding - IIRC you can stay hidden even after you attack, but you'll take a -20 penalty).

General:
The dodge feat tree is not bad: dodge itself will give you a little more AC, and spring attack will allow you to attack the enemy (though only once) without the need to remain in his range. As a marksman, you can also opt to take Shot on the Run, which is Spring Attack with ranged weapons.

Expertise might be interesting, and the rest of the Expertise tree are quite fun, if you like more than just hit the enemy (improved disarm will make disarm attempts safer, since he cannot fight back)

Quick Draw will give you the possibility to attack in a surprise round, even if you haven't drawn your weapon before the fight.


Skills: Hide and Move Silently are a no-brainer, whether you might be good in combat or avoid it. Tumble is a must for every rogue, since it lets you avoid AoO from moving past enemies.
Listen and Spot will make you notice things - amongst them other rogues that try to sneak up on the party, and ambushes in general. Sense Motive is to know when the other one is lying.
Bluff can be quite useful in combat, if you can't flank a target (you can feint as a standard action, and if you succeed, the enemy looses his dex bonus to AC for your next attack), and is a good skill to deal with others.
Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Disguise are good choices if you want to obtain information without sneaking about (or if sneaking isn't possible), or want to be a con artist.
Search and Disable Divice are important if you want to deal with traps.
Climb, Balance and Jump are your skills if you want to be an acrobat that can get everywhere.
Open Lock is good for getting past locked doors without the usual noise fighters make when they break them, or wizards blasting them.
Pick Pocket (Sleight of Hand) is not only useful to steal things from others, but can also be used to hide objects on your person (including weapons).
Use Magic Divice is your choice if you don't want to be left out with those nice magical toys.


I'd suggest to spend the feats on combat related matter, while get a nice selection of skills (with 8 + int to choose from you have many of them) to deal with matters off the battlefield.
Your highest ability score goes into dex, no question.
You'll want a fairly high int score on top of that, since it mens more skill points, and high cha for social interaction. A con of at least 12 is nice since you're quite short on HP and could use some bonus points. Strength isn't that important, since the bulk of damage you deal will come from sneak attacks, anyway, and with Weapon Finesse you can circumvent the disadvantages of a low str for attack rolls. Wis is really only for will saves, since you can afford to get ranks in wis-based skills (and they are mostly class skills for you) and outshine the non-rogues cause they have few skill points and often must pay the higher price of cross class skills for them.

 

[bret]

In my experience, rogues have a tough time of it in melee. It is even worse as an Elf, since she will have a lower Con.

I would suggest:
Finesse: Main weapon
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

This allows her to have a chance of hitting in melee, or staying back a bit and plunking arrows into the target.

I would suggest you consider a couple of things before making the Elven Thinblade her main weapon. There are advantages to Short Swords, Rapier, or Dagger.

Short Swords, especially with rogue abilities, are going to be more common than Thinblades. You have all those halflings out there requesting them.

Dagger can be thrown or weilded in melee. You can afford to carry more, and it is also a weapon generally associated with a rogue.

Rapier might be superior if you are really going the melee route. I think you need this for the Duelist PrC, which is a good PrC for a melee rogue.

Attributes:
You will want good Dex, Con, and Int. Order depends heavily on how she wants to play the rogue, the more melee she does the more Con matters.

I would go something like:
Int 16 Dex 15 Con 14 Cha 12 Str 10 Wis 10

After adjusting for Elven race:
Int 16 Dex 17 Con 12 Cha 12 Str 10 Wis 10

Get 11 skill points per level, three bonus languages.

Then on your 4th level you pump your Dex to 18.

It is a toss up if Dex or Int is more important to a rogue. I generally go with Int high at start and pump Dex. Those skill points can make a difference, and there are a lot of Rogue skills that are Int based.


Skills:
Max out Use Magic Device. She is getting to the stage where a fair number of creatures can't be hurt by criticals, which makes her sneak attack not work. Want a backup, and this is the rogues best shot.

 

[RedSwan78]

Thanks for the great replies, and for that info on the Ninja class!

I'll present these ideas before her and explain them a bit and see what she wants to do.. thanks all!

 

[An0nymo|_|s]

Oh, I should give the rest of the party as well:

1- 6th Elven Cleric
2- 5/1 PsyWar/Psion, Human
3- 6th Human Bard
4- 6th Human Wizard
5- 3rd Half-Celestial/Elven Rogue

6-Me- 3rd Half-Dragon/Human Fighter with spiked chain that focuses on tripping (and soon) disarming people


house rule, or is ur character 7th? half-dragons have an ECL of +4