Quitting a group & starting anew..ground rules?

[Man in the Funny Hat]

My assertion is that it doesn't much matter what your rules are. The point is to have thought about The Rules ahead of time, are communicating frequently and openly amongst everyone at the table, and everyone starts out on the same page as regards not just Table Rules but on how key rules and game aspects are interpreted and will be handled. Top example - the DM describes how he expects paladins to behave and clarifies how he will handle alignment issues. Stop these things before they start and you kill 90% of all the crap that comes up with EVERY group sooner or later.

 

[DonTadow]

I think most of us completely understand your point. We just don't agree with the conclusions you are attempting to draw from it. This is a crucial difference, the understanding of which will make or break an "argumentative" thread.

So you don't agree that there should be rules reguarding personal and on-site behavior? Theres not too many places you can go to and do what you wish

 

[Steel_Wind]

So you don't agree that there should be rules reguarding personal and on-site behavior? Theres not too many places you can go to and do what you wish

Of course there are rules in a civil society. The ones we learn as we grow up and become adults do not need to be repeated.

The point is that you don't need to post rules about washing your hands after taking a crap nor is it necessary to tell someone explicitly they ought not to go into someone else's bedroom when a guest in their home.

If you do need to do this - you are gaming with utter social rejects who are not adults. There is something wrong with them.

I don't know how I can say it more plainly than that - but there it is.

Do you have any idea how utterly bewildered and offended many of us would be to recieve such "rules" upon entering someone's home as a guest?

I would be gone in a heartbeat.

 

[farscapesg1]

Of course there are rules in a civil society. The ones we learn as we grow up and become adults do not need to be repeated.

The point is that you don't need to post rules about washing your hands after taking a crap nor is it necessary to tell someone explicitly they ought not to go into someone else's bedroom when a guest in their home.

If you do need to do this - you are gaming with utter social rejects who are not adults. There is something wrong with them.

I don't know how more plainly it can be stated than that - but there it is.

Do you have any idea how utterly bewildered and offended many of us would be to recieve such "rules" upon entering someone's home as a guest?

I would be gone in a heartbeat.

Some would argue that these rules do need to be posted. When was the last time you went to a movie theatre and used the rest room? As an adult I know to wash my hands after taking care of business. It is disturbing to watch the number of guys do their business at the urinal and then just zip up and walk out. These are all adults and part of our society. Obviously, those "unwritten" rules everyone is supposed to know aren't working Not only that, but since the last three guys out the door didn't wash their hands, they've contaminated the door. Even if you wash your hands, you then have to dry them (using the "environment friendly" hot air units) and then touch that same door to leave, thereby voiding the whole process of washing your hands. Now when you sit down to eat your popcorn, guess what else you are eating

If you like a game setting with friends and an unwritten code of conduct, more power to you. But, your way is not the only way. Some people like a structured environment, with rules and penalties spelled out in detail. They aren't necessarily correct either.

Take the fun-vs-work comments about gaming for example. Some people like to get together with friends to game and don't care if half or more of the session is tied up in idle chit-chat and what-not. Great! Good for you. I'm not about to call you an a$$hat because that is your sort of game.

On the other end, I would never game with my old friends again. My time with them is better spent just sitting around and shooting the bull without the pretense of playing D&D. When I game, I treat it similiar to work. My job is to show up, participate in the game, and help make sure that everyone has fun. My payment for this responsibility is getting to have fun myself. If I'm not having enough fun, I'm free to quit. If I am not providing during the game (being disruptive, irritating other players, annoying the DM, not paying attention, etc.) they have the right to "fire" me. Spending 3 or 4 hours of my time not "getting paid" (i.e., not having fun because we are doing everything except playing the game)for being there doesn't cut it.

To further complicate things, I do things for the pleasure of accomplishing something, and gaming is included in that. Whether it is killing the dragon to save the princess, or even just dying in the attempt, I need to have a goal and work towards something. Sitting at a game table for 7 hours and clearing 5 rooms in a dungeon, when the module is designed to be finished in one game session, is not enough of an accomplishment.

 

[Hairfoot]

It all seems harsh in writing, but Emirikol is an experienced player, and he's establishing some rules for his group which will contribute to a better experience for all involved. Take it or leave it. I know I'll be taking some of his rules, and leaving those which would be oppressive in my group's style of play.

I'd like to comment on "spouses at the table".

My group of 8 is 20-35 years old, and, being the postmodern neurotic bundles we are, break-ups and new relationships are common. In the past year we've had 5 new crushes (4 girls, 1 boy) come along to sandbag on the game. And why not? D&D has such a rotten stigma, why wouldn't he/she want to see what their partner finds so appealing that they'll spend an entire day each week poring over statistics and rolling dice?

The problem is when the spouse isn't interested in the game, but decides "it's something we can do together, honey". Then you have a player at the table who's bored with most of the proceedings, and pressures another player to be bored too. All of a sudden, the relationship tensions of two people become tensions for the entire group.

It becomes nightmarish when player X starts projecting relationship dysfunction onto the DM, because the other players oppose it and...a good gaming group and a workable relationship both end in acrimony.

I think that disallowing players' partners at the table is an unfair intrusion into the players' personal lives, but everyone in the group should be entitled to an opinion of the partner AS A PLAYER.

 

[MatrexsVigil]

1. Everybody fills out the potential player questionaire (email me if you want it) and nobody invites anyone else without the whole group's permission.
--An excellent idea and one that my previous GM/DMs always tried to impliment. It was always met with resistance (with the exception of one or two games) and eventually wasn't worth the hassle to the poor G/DM.

2. People are here to game. If you're not here to game, you're in the wrong place.
--I've always gamed with my friends, so I have always had the chance to socialize with them after/before the game. I'm guilty of OOC chatter during a game like everyone else, but I have always tried keeping it to a minimum and actually stopped talking when people asked me to.

3. Nobody sits at the table until their character is finished and has been reviewed by the DM (that includes levelling). You and everyone else in the group have 332 hours to finish your characters before the next session. Is that enough time?
--Most of my games took place once a week or once every two weeks. Even then, it's not that hard to level or at the very least have a good concrete idea of what you want to play before coming to the game, even within a week. (The only exception to this was players with a family/children but even still...)

4. Players police their own. That means that the DM is not a baby sitter. The DM assigns 2 or more players to set the offending player straight or kick him out.
--Dunno what this really means, and I'm sure this has never happened in my games. It's too bad, as sometimes, even in a game with good friends, this should have happened more than once.

5. Nobody questions the DM's rulings during the game unless it would mean instant death for someone's character otherwise and they've already looked up the rule and have their finger on the actual paragraph and are about to read it out loud. If it's abiguuous, the DM's ruling stands [period]. You are at the wrong place if you just want to whine about every little thing the DM does.
--Thank goodness. Over the years I've been gaming, it almost seems I am the only person willing to go, "Oh, okay. That works for now. I'll find the rules on that later." even if my character is going to die. There's no need to argue during the game unless it's something incredibly obvious and the D/GM is just *not* understanding. Even then, it doesn't mean people get to start screaming.

6. Players who create stupidly munchkin characters can expect a stupidly short life and not at the expense of the other PC's lives.
--Yes. Honestly, I'm an avid power-gamer. When I make a character based on a strong concept, they're going to be good. I, however, do my damnest not to shove my character into the spot light every single time, even if it's what s/he is good at! As a player, I get extremely frustrated when someone decides to make the 'uber-whatever' and take up all the game time just because 'they're that awesome'.

7. Time is of the essence so plan ahead (bring food and beer rather than stopping the game to order and receive). We don't stop the whole game for someone who needs to take a cell phone call or go have a smoke.
--Ordering and eating food hasn't been much of a problem during my previous games, well, except for the deciding where you want to eat part. That always seems to be the serious time waster.

8. Want x.p.? Participate. All x.p. is given anonymously via email and will vary 10-50% from the next PC's.
--So long as the D/GM takes into account that some characters just aren't too useful in some situations, no matter how 'hard' you're trying to RP/participate, I don't think this is a bad idea.

9. Nobody is a 'permanent' member of the group. Anyone, including the DM, can be 'voted out' at any time. Nothing personal. It's just gaming.
--I wish this was a rule that I could have enforced in all my gaming groups since day one. Just because we're all friends doesn't mean you get to play everyweek if you're causing a problem. If there was a vote instead of people getting all up in arms about it, there would have been less player drama in my previous groups.

10. Every couple months we'll talk about how to make the game better. Bring some positive feedback as well as some things you'd like improved.
--My groups seemed to have done this after every session, if time permitted. Good rule none-the-less.

11. Every player can expect to have their character die at some point. Try to be mature about it.
--Sure, people get attached to their character but in a game where no one dies because the D/GM is too afraid to get the 'waterworks' or getting yelled at for killing someone...where's the fun? Who turned on the God Mode cheat?

Overall, I wouldn't have much problem playing in a group who had these rules, so long as I was able to meet the people before hand to determine if they were actual experienced gamers (who had created these rules to help) instead of pompous jerks getting their thrills on putting 'newbies' through the gauntlet.

-P.C.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

But you don't begin a marriage by saying : "I do - until I deem you to be a bitch".

Okay, this made me laugh. A lot.

I agree with you, though. I can't imagine the kinds of measures described in this thread being a part of my gaming.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

So you don't agree that there should be rules reguarding personal and on-site behavior? Theres not too many places you can go to and do what you wish

Nope, no one has said or implied that except to strawman others' possitions. The question is whether a set of hostily worded ("is that enough to for you?" "if not, g.t.h.o.") insulting ("try to be mature about it") and authoritarian ("no smoking or food breaks" xp given privately by my unexplained formula) rules are a good thing to present to potential new players. That was the question in the poll. Rules like these, presented by the DM. Some of us say no. Several of us have explicitly said "some groundrules, mutually agreed upon, but not this rant sheet".

If you are trying to argue for "rules regarding personal and on-site behavior" you are arguing with yourself.

 

[fusangite]

Gaming is a social activity, having rules to make it less social is silly. Rather than ban ordering food schedule it - build it in, and let the players get some socializing in while the food is being et. If they want to talk about out of game stuff tell 'em to hold it till the pizza arrives.

And you have meetings to add new rules to this? Better to have a meeting to remove some. And vote the DM off the island while you are at it.

Sentiments with which I agree.

Furthermore, I have to say: the valid rules in the bunch are basically "don't be a jerk." If you recruit jerks, they will be jerks not matter what the rules say. The solution is not to make these rules, it is to be more careful in your recruitment.

 

[fusangite]

So you don't agree that there should be rules reguarding personal and on-site behavior?

I'll take the bait. No I don't. If you need basic conduct rules like some of the ones on the list, you have recruited the wrong bunch of players. I shouldn't have to print rules for people's social conduct at my D&D games any more than I should for my dinner guests.

Theres not too many places you can go to and do what you wish

Agreed. But basic human decency and common etiquette should suffice. The only places where conduct rules have to be posted are places like subway systems and hospitals; it is my hope that the standards for RPG group membership are a wee bit higher than the admission criteria for public hospitals and transit systems.