Racially diverse artwork in D&D...does it influence you?

[ShinHakkaider]

Ugh, Never mind...

 

[Imaro]

Ok, I was going to keep my mouth shut because I didn't react to that quote strongly one way or the other, but that is where I draw the line. My naturally rebellious spirit has just been offended.

It was a joke, and a clever one at that, It used an argument basically pulled out anytime someone says something about D&D isn't realistic by those that support the game. It speaks truth through absurdity and because of that it is, IMHO, a pretty good joke.

People trot out some variation on this argument in all sorts of contexts. The basic argument here is, "Since its fantasy, why do you find it easier to accept certain liberties than others?" For example, you might see this argument presented as, "If you are willing to accept that the hero can kill a 30 ton fire breathing dragon with a sword, why do you have trouble accepting that he can survive a 100' fall?"

Yep, see you did understand it, and it's used quite often on these boards.

The basic flaw in any variant of this argument is the same. It assumes that what allows you to accept the illusion of fantasy is its adherence to some sort of realism. This is of course not the case. A fantasy setting has implicit exemptions to reality inherent to the setting, and these exemptions are grounded in shared mythic archetypes. Mention as elements of the setting goblins, dragons, and wizards and you can from that readily accept the inclusion of a whole host of associated elements that are part of the common setting, like for example dwarves, giants, magic swords, knights in shining armor, deadly enchantresses, hideous flesh eating monsters, tomb dwelling undead, and all sorts of other things that are drawn from a common English/Celtic/Germanic mythology that runs powerfully in our imagination right back to Beowulf and the Arthurian romances.

Let's think about this for a minute, "shared mythic archetypes". That means these ar archetypes found universally throughout the world with perhaps minor variations and name changes. And then you go on to say that these trappings are drawn from an English/Celtic/Germanic mythology that runs powerfully in our your imagination, right back to Beowulf and Arthurian romances. Yet I see more influences from ancient world mythology and the pulp genre of swords & sorcery than Arthurian romance...is there even a base knight class anymore? These are your perceptions and what you have chosen to select as the influential parts of your D&D game, they are not the elements of a generic D&D game.

To really see how unreflective the claim is, one only has to alter it sufficiently to put it into context, "I can't see how you can say, "okay, i can believe that there are hideous monsters, dragons, hags and heroes sufficient to rip the arms off of ogres with thier bare hands... But a black Dane? Man, that just ruins the illusion for me."

When did "Danes" become a part of D&D? D&D=/=europe.

You can't? Really? Is it so astounding that someone finds it jarring to anachronistically insert not merely the occasional 'black knight with unusual background' into the setting, but the whole panapoly of multi-culturalism into the middle of a fantasy setting for what is so obviously purely modern reasons?

Really check out Exalted, I don't think the art is jarring in anyway. In fact I would see diversity in artwork no more jarring than D&D sticking animals and monsters from all kind of mythological and real world areas in one book together. Why? Because again, D&D has more in common, for me, with the ancient world and sword & sorcery than any arthurian romances.

There are several other things that bother me about the statement. The first is that its a straw man. "But black people?" is a wholly uncharitable and unfair characterization of the otherside of the argument. I don't think anyone here is objecting to the presence of heroes of a different hue provided sufficient rational is provided for such heroes to be out of thier native environment. I don't think anyone is necessarily objecting to black samurii or black knights so much as the idea that somehow the story needs black samurri or blacks knights and is inherently better for it. I don't think you ought to simplify the thinking of anyone in the thread down to "But black people?", and then just handily slap 'Your a racist' labelling on thier thinking so as to dismiss it.

Yet, there is a need for it if the goal of your game is to make it accessible to and popular with a larger market. What is the rationale of white people in the Hepmonoland jungles... oh, yeah they fled into the jungle, it's as simple as that (even though they no longer portray any traits of euro-culture and are more similar to tribal cultures in africa). In the end I see no reason why this is non-breaking to acceptance of a fantasy world.

The other thing that bothers me about it is that it looks like an attempt to be funny. It always irritates me when people misuse humor like that to dismiss and belittle rather than to increase empathy and understanding. It might have been ok for the poster to offer the above as a humorous self-critique. To humorously accuse your fellow posters of racism isn't very funny. There is a very vast difference between Eddie Murphy doing his SNL skits, and someone from say Jeff Foxworthy's background inventing those reutines. Likewise, there would be a vast difference between a Jeff Foxworthy reutine and someone from Eddie Murphy's background inventing such a reutine. As self-parody, both comics reutines are funny to everyone involved while still being able to nudge everyone involved and get them to self-critique thier own attitudes. As a means of belittling some other group, the reutines of both comics would be damnable.

Again,I think it was a pretty funny joke, I also think that if it made you, and others, think that deeply about it it served one of the main purposes of intelligent humor.

Anyone here who loved that quote because they thought, "It's funny because I am such a racist"? I'm willing to bet they are vastly outnumbered by the people who where thinking, "It's funny because they are such racists!"

Yeah but I don't think most people on the side for diversity are saying they don't want any pieces of artwork featuring white people. However there are some on the other side using "suspension of disbelief " to say that unless some kind of justification (in a generic set of corebooks that have no inherrent setting, at that ) for artwork featuring non-whites is in the book that art should be excluded.

 

[Barastrondo]

My point is not that it's wrong to mix genres or to create a reason to have, say, a black samurai -- just that doing so calls attention to itself. If you don't want your game to be about mixing samurai tropes with blaxploitation, then don't drop black samurai into your game.

I disagree. That assumes that games that are about attempts to emulate a historical culture or demographic are the assumed norm, and while that's certainly the case with gamers who are particularly interested in a given historical culture/demographic, I doubt that it's universal.

If a game is about a bunch of rag-tag adventurers saving the world from dire evils in a fantasy setting, there's no assumption of race whatsoever. If you want to say "a medieval, European-influenced fantasy setting" or "a take on feudal Japan, but with elves" awesome — but that's the first act of consumer customization, not a core assumption of the fantasy genre, or even of the D&D fantasy subgenre.

 

[Cadfan]

Whites expect to be hated more than non-whites? Seems unlikely to me.

White people with certain political leanings tend to be extremely invested in this idea that they aren't racist, but that everyone racistly believes them to be racist because they're white.

In any case, my bottom line is simple. D&D isn't about emulating medieval Europe. Its about emulating a magical fantasy world. This world might share some characteristics with medieval Europe (castles, mostly European weapons), but it typically has a LOT of characteristics that are NOTHING LIKE medieval Europe, beginning with but certainly not stopping with the geography- it literally isn't Europe.

The milieu of fantasy is a shared cultural possession.

 

[Snoweel]

White people with certain political leanings tend to be extremely invested in this idea that they aren't racist, but that everyone racistly believes them to be racist because they're white.

Clearly there's a lot of mistrust in the world.

 

[mmadsen]

It's kind of like Star Trek. Gene Roddenberry created it to push a specific political agenda with regards to race. Dr. King himself saw the importance of simply having a black woman in the cast of the show. Uhura wasn't the star, but just being there made a difference. It makes a difference that people of different races are just there, just doing what everyone else is doing. It may not matter to everyone what colour the little hobbits are in the PHB, but it probably matters to SOMEONE.

Gene Roddenberry was painting a picture of a plausible future we could strive toward. "Look, centuries from now, no one will care about race or nationality, so stop your petty hate."

If he was making Wagon Train rather than Wagon Train in Space, it would have been stupid to include a mixed-race, mixed-nationality troop of cavalry officers leading their men and women to the rescue.

I think wanting to exclude images of non-whites from any sort of popular media is racist, flat out. And I think no matter what the justification given is, it's unacceptable. I think a conscious desire to exclude blacks is racist by the very definition of the word.

So excluding Africans from a King Arthur movie is flat-out racist?

 

[hamishspence]

concerning diversity

If you're running a medieval European setting, there is an easy explanation for "out of place" people. Roman Empire. It accepted people from anywhere into the legions, given enough time. The legions moved people all over the world. So, you could have an influx of people from almost any type, almost anywhere.


In 4th ed, the answer is Empire of Nerath. Same principle. Big empires enable people to appear in places you wouldn't expect them to be.

So, no, a diverse population doesn't break immersion for me.

 

[Celebrim]

Clearly there's a lot of mistrust in the world.

Yes.

 

[Seonaid]

It only gets worse when I try, in utter futility, to explain it to the caucasian gamers I know or to these online communities.

Its been my experience that no matter how you try to address the issue of representations of minority-race people in the arts, majority-race people and minority-race people simply cannot see it in the same light.

<snip>

Having a discussion on it invariably leads into hostile feelings as the people on each side are almost never capable of getting outside their own normative assumptions and even comprehending what the other side sees - to an extent. Minority race people are much better at seeing the POV of the majority in the society they grew up in, simply because that majority controls that nature and format of all access to information - even 'minority media.' But this ability to see the other side's POV comes without a real comprehension of how that side relates to it.

...

All of which is a way of trying to say that... no matter how they do it, whenever they put non-whites into gaming products they're going to keep doing it as semi-offensive stereotypes, and there will never be an ability to even communicate to them why it is offensive... And most of the time, it is not done by intent, which makes it even more frustrating. Its one thing to go after someone who's acting badly, its another thing to try and deal with someone who simply cannot know better no matter how well they mean.

Exactly, thank you.

So I won't buy a book because it has racial diversity. But I might *not* buy a book I might have been interested in if it lacks any sort of diversity. It does depend on what it is. <snip>

If I felt that there was a conscious effort to exclude non-whites from a product, I wouldn't buy it. <snip>

It's kind of like Star Trek. Gene Roddenberry created it to push a specific political agenda with regards to race. Dr. King himself saw the importance of simply having a black woman in the cast of the show. Uhura wasn't the star, but just being there made a difference. It makes a difference that people of different races are just there, just doing what everyone else is doing. It may not matter to everyone what colour the little hobbits are in the PHB, but it probably matters to SOMEONE.

Ditto. Ditto ditto ditto.

Likewise, a conscious desire to include any race - black or otherwise - is racist "by the very definition of the word".

That we're all making a fuss about the skin colour of characters in a series of illustrations is in itself racist.

Yes, it is racist and I doubt that most people would be able to argue that it's not. However, we aren't talking about racism's dictionary definition.

The colour of the characters is irrelevent - is anyone here, as a DM, going to describe their NPCs as 'black', 'white' or anything else?

And if so give an example of how and why.

Someone else has already mentioned it, but yes--if it's relevant to the situation, of course. It can make a huge difference to know that your contact is not of the majority in the area, frex. But even aside from that, I like having a bit of description. I like details like that--it makes the game more interesting to me.

Saruman the White even.

I always liked that. However, and I don't remember (bad gamer, bad!) whether this is actually true or just my imagination, I always thought of it as good gone bad . . . which means that again white = good, generally.

I'm not saying that your game in your home has to include a single minority. I am saying the official artwork for the flagship title of an entire industry ought to.

You, sir (or madam), are wise.

Sure but do you really expect WotC to take the hit in the wallet in the name of social engineering?

In an ideal world, yes. It has to start somewhere. In reality, unfortunately, no.

My point exactly.

Please explain. I'm not sure I quite get you.

In terms of the core rulebook dam right there should be different skin colours, hues and bone structure in terms of campaign settings I'm not so sure.

The reasons as far as I've seen different human races are used is so we (the gaming audience) immeadiately reach into our memory and go, ok it looks japanese and wears a rich looking kimono with samurai swords, we're auriental samurai type setting here, I know how they're going to basically act with honor etc. if anyone looks different they're probably gonna be special. It's to capitalise on peoples preconceived opinions to get them quicker into the feel of the setting.

Like it or not everyone pigeonholes people, whether its because of the type of car a person drives, VW beetle as opposed to a rolls royce, whether its a member of the royal family, to a youth wearing a tracksuit and a hoody, most if not all people will have a preconcieved opinion on someone or something depending on their appearance, even if you go into something open minded if you meet a sweet old lady who looks like a grandma you'd be suprised if she started rapping or swearing and commenting on the latest video games thats because your initial expectations were based on her looks.

<snip>

Traditionally its seems to me RPG's have used these stereotypes to get across a feel of a nation/area very quickly (legend of the five rings as an extreme example) to its readers by having comparisions to the real world. Whether they try to go against these stereotypes in the future will be interesting.

I agree completely, and your comment about the grandma rapping and swearing makes me think of that commercial I've seen at the movie theaters (I don't watch TV, so it might also be on television as well) with the (white) woman who's obsessed with this song she hears all the time and finally a (black) guy uses his phone to figure it out for her. Why was the guy not a "young hoodlum" type?

I don't get the impression that most whites expect non-whites to hate them, any more than most blacks expect non-blacks to hate them, or Chinese expect non-Chinese to hate them.

I am SO not picking on you, but you said it this time.

Why do you use "white," "black," and then "Chinese"? There are multiple versions of white and black, and not all east Asians are Chinese. I've been trying to avoid talking about myself demographically, but as someone who is east Asian and NOT Chinese, this bothers me whenever I see it. And I am definitely NOT targeting you, S'mon, and I really hope you take that to heart. But whenever I get the "where are you (really) from" conversation, the other person's reaction generally goes like this: China, Japan . . . Vietnam?

I can't imagine what it's like for south or west Asians, to have people say "Asia" and immediately think east Asia.

In fact I would see diversity in artwork no more jarring than D&D sticking animals and monsters from all kind of mythological and real world areas in one book together.

Actually, this always kind of bothered me. Not the mythological thing, but the real world thing.

If a game is about a bunch of rag-tag adventurers saving the world from dire evils in a fantasy setting, there's no assumption of race whatsoever. If you want to say "a medieval, European-influenced fantasy setting" or "a take on feudal Japan, but with elves" awesome — but that's the first act of consumer customization, not a core assumption of the fantasy genre, or even of the D&D fantasy subgenre.

Right. Exactly. Thank you.

D&D isn't about emulating medieval Europe. Its about emulating a magical fantasy world. This world might share some characteristics with medieval Europe (castles, mostly European weapons), but it typically has a LOT of characteristics that are NOTHING LIKE medieval Europe, beginning with but certainly not stopping with the geography- it literally isn't Europe.

YES. That's exactly what it should be.

 

[Afrodyte]

D&D isn't about emulating medieval Europe. Its about emulating a magical fantasy world. This world might share some characteristics with medieval Europe (castles, mostly European weapons), but it typically has a LOT of characteristics that are NOTHING LIKE medieval Europe, beginning with but certainly not stopping with the geography- it literally isn't Europe.

QFT.

Hear-hear.

But, I gotta say to everyone on this thread: Thank you for talking about a sensitive topic intelligently. 9 pages and no hate speech might be an internet record.