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D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

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It doesn't change the techniques. It doesn't change my interest in playing that game. It changes my estimation of whether the group is likely to bust up.
Why do we need a word for the types of games pemerton likes? I like watching mysteries, political dramas and the occasional comedy. I don’t need a word for the types of movies I like (and I don’t think such a word would see widespread use anyway)
 

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Let’s dig in a bit more into that Ogrish example in which you are playing a charming halfling bard.

In DW (or MotW, with which I’m more familiar), your character takes the “Investigating a mystery” action. On a 7-9, your character succeeds with a complication:
“Your attempt to locate the mob boss of the town has led you to his top enforcer. Just one problem, he loves halflings…for lunch!”
On a 6-, it is a failure.
“Your questioning has drawn the mob boss’ attention, he has sent a team to deal with you, including a halfling-hating ogre”.
In both cases, the DM is explicitly placing a challenge to the halfling player.
None of those, as I understand it, are GM Force.

On the 5e side, the halfling bard would make an appropriate check (or simply succeed, if he has the criminal or urchin background), and that would lead him to the mob boss’ top enforcer, an ogre who eats halflings for lunch. In this case, if the DM placed a creature that he knows will be a challenge to the halfling player, it feels that you would conclude that this an exercise of GM Force. After all, the GM chose the opponent (preferred outcome) and the opponent goes against one of the player’s ideals (being the sort of person that can talk their way out of trouble).

The principal difference I see between these two examples is that the mechanics are transparent in the first case. If the player rolls poorly, they know they are going to be the recipient of a complication or a hard move. And I get that if you are particularly sensitive about why the DM includes one type of challenge rather than the other, that transparency is extremely useful.

But to me, 1) transparency is the wrong metric to evaluate GM Force, as you will get a ton of false positives;
2) from the player side, it is really easy to jump to conclusions about the use of force

Why do you assume that the GM is indifferent to the actions the players declare? Even if the AP’s next link is in the Dark Clouds, maybe the PCs will be able to find something useful in the Rainbow Rocks?
Also, I think we could say that the GM is taking account the dramatic needs of the character when placing the halfling-eater ogre. It might be an interesting and engaging situation for the player if they cannot rely too on their usual sweet talking tricks or if they can it takes some unusual effort and creativity.
 

This is said, but it's not taken further to examine what play is being allowed. Interacting with the Ten Towns in Rime doesn't do anything on it's own, especially if the level of interaction is engaging in the prepared material and/or some improved shopping/free roleplay. In this interaction, what is the focus of play? Can the players enacts real and lasting change to the course of the game (and this doesn't mean that they make a friend that stays a friend, I'm actually talking about changing what future play is about)? Can interaction in the Ten Towns actually change who the villain is or alter the current plans of the 1st act transition bad guys?
Absolutely the PCs can run for mayor or alderman, and then use their position to enact long-term change.
 

If you are still requiring play go through the end wicket, what have you really changed about the structure of the game? You've allowed maybe some player stuff, but it's not the important parts, it's mostly at the level of color or minor interest -- some side plots. This is akin to the train pulling into the station and you can get out and tour the area before reboarding. Does any amount of this touring actually change the structure of the trip?
Honestly, I can’t understand this line of thinking. Even in an AP, no, the point of the game for my character isn’t that they defeated the villain at the end, it’s all the stuff they did along the way. From establishing a trading empire for their descendants, to clearing their father’s name, to becoming the pre-eminent story-teller of the realm.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Honestly, I can’t understand this line of thinking. Even in an AP, no, the point of the game for my character isn’t that they defeated the villain at the end, it’s all the stuff they did along the way. From establishing a trading empire for their descendants, to clearing their father’s name, to becoming the pre-eminent story-teller of the realm.
See, my experience of play is that those other things don't happen--that once a table sits down to "go through" a given AP, the point of play at that table becomes getting through that AP. Obviously experiences differ, but I find that the goal of finishing the AP warps play--not just in the sense of needing to stay on the rails, but in the sense that character goals don't matter to the AP (frankly, IME, characters don't matter to APs).
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Why do we need a word for the types of games pemerton likes? I like watching mysteries, political dramas and the occasional comedy. I don’t need a word for the types of movies I like (and I don’t think such a word would see widespread use anyway)
I find the distinction very useful, as it tells me what kind of game I'm playing. I understand immediately that playing 5e = deployment of GM Force unless such a distinction is made.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
See, my experience of play is that those other things don't happen--that once a table sits down to "go through" a given AP, the point of play at that table becomes getting through that AP. Obviously experiences differ, but I find that the goal of finishing the AP warps play--not just in the sense of needing to stay on the rails, but in the sense that character goals don't matter to the AP (frankly, IME, characters don't matter to APs).

This seems pretty accurate to me, too. I’ve run APs both as is and heavily modified, and I’ve played in them as well.

Generally speaking, they have a gravity to them…it pulls and tugs at everything. Warping play is a good way to phrase it….it’s always there, and all the other stuff leans toward, is pulled toward it.

Sometimes that’s great. I ran Curse of Strahd for my group. The presence of Strahd as this inevitable, looming threat is exactly what you want in that scenario. It’s the perfect feeling for that situation.

If you really want to explore characters, or things other than the struggle against Strahd, then I wouldn’t suggest running Curse of Strahd.

The same is true of any of the other pre-written adventures, although some are less guilty of this, or can be made to be less guilty with some work. But the place of prominence that the built-in goal for the adventure holds renders any other goal as secondary by default.

So let’s say I have a character in mind and I have some goals for play that are specific to that character; I’m best served not playing in one of the published campaigns so that the things I’d like to see come up in play are allowed the room they need to develop and play out.
 

I don't recall you earlier post except in vague details. But as I understand what you have posted, the GM authors <stuff> into Rainbow Rocks in order to motivate the players to declare actions that will take their PCs to Dark Clouds.

This is the GM using their backstory authority to manipulate the players' use of their authority over action declarations, in order to try and bring a pre-conceived event (the PCs' arrival at and exploration of Dark Clouds) into play.
Right, and this is where I'm taking a page from @Ovinomancer in terms of the general uselessness of a lot of the terminology used to label things in the 'traditional' paradigm. I don't care about anything except where the STORY AUTHORITY comes from. That is what is really significant in this whole topic. If the GM is bending everything to create a path to Dark Clouds, then they are asserting story authority, authorial control over the direction of the plot and content of the game. It is a moot point if the players have 'autonomy over character action' if the only situations they are presented with are designed to inevitably give them no real option except Dark Clouds! And make no mistake, this is exactly what happens, and its exactly why the whole 'AP' type of setup is almost inevitably going to lead to some measure of GM assertion of authority, because you have only certain finite material in your AP and it needs to be engaged.

So, given that we are hardly going to give up on the idea of pre-written adventures, at least for most people engaging in RPG play, there would seem to be a need for a way to avoid this pitfall! Well, you can obviously make what has been discussed, what @Manbearcat calls 'Mass Effect Play' where you get a bunch of choices but inevitably they lead to one or a few endings. I don't know that this is a bad compromise if the goal is to stick to published material. A more pure 'Sandbox' approach could work too, which implies, in contrast, less 'directed flow' of events. In other words location is primary over plot, and there's not so much to tie things together, or not such a strong thematic compulsion to "get on towards the next set of goals" or whatever. I'd note that design can substitute other things for 'location' in this case, not just geographical coordinates.

Honestly, I think it is REALLY not that easy to generate adventures in a Story Now paradigm. At least not complex or extensive ones. OTOH if the focus is really more on characterization/character development, and such factors, vs just 'action' and traditional D&D-type considerations (loot, XP, environmental exploration) then you can probably do it, because the dimensions in which you care about force become different. In other words, do we really care, in a DW game if the PCs are on the mountain or in the dungeon? If they are fighting the Orcs or the Dragon? What SHOULD be germane is, what bonds exist, how are they being resolved, how does the interplay between the PC's dramatic needs and the plot of the story play out. This is more central than the coarse 'grist' of the story. It matters not if I save the halfling from falling rocks or orcish spears, if I risked my life for my ally, that is the salient point.

Thus if neither the players nor the GM is all THAT invested in which corridor the PCs go down, then perhaps there's a more Story Game way to make material work for you. I think Doskvol sort of seems like it falls into that category, for all that its a built in assumed part of BitD. Every 'job' has a lot of common structure, the interesting part is how the PCs cope with individual challenges, and what the consequences are, and how that reflects in the fiction going on from there.
 

This seems pretty accurate to me, too. I’ve run APs both as is and heavily modified, and I’ve played in them as well.

Generally speaking, they have a gravity to them…it pulls and tugs at everything. Warping play is a good way to phrase it….it’s always there, and all the other stuff leans toward, is pulled toward it.

Sometimes that’s great. I ran Curse of Strahd for my group. The presence of Strahd as this inevitable, looming threat is exactly what you want in that scenario. It’s the perfect feeling for that situation.

If you really want to explore characters, or things other than the struggle against Strahd, then I wouldn’t suggest running Curse of Strahd.

The same is true of any of the other pre-written adventures, although some are less guilty of this, or can be made to be less guilty with some work. But the place of prominence that the built-in goal for the adventure holds renders any other goal as secondary by default.

So let’s say I have a character in mind and I have some goals for play that are specific to that character; I’m best served not playing in one of the published campaigns so that the things I’d like to see come up in play are allowed the room they need to develop and play out.
Sure. Games have premises and things work best if characters are compatible with the premise.
 

Then we disagree. When I'm creating a major powerful NPC, one of the first things I do is consider what they can't do, and that isn't going to change just because its inconvenient. It might change because of PC actions in the game, but even then I'm cautious about how I assess that.

To my view, if you haven't considered what things are beyond an enemy, you haven't really considered the enemy.
Well... I certainly would not argue with people's assertions about the character of their own play. I would point out that, as a general concept, its hard to give that a huge consideration. That is, this sort of unrevealed backstory is pretty tenuous. One can always reason some way to get to X. Or if X really is very explicitly ruled out (IE this bad guy has an absolute aversion to lying, so he won't deceive the PCs) then there's always Y, which can be functionally equivalent to X, but avoids the restriction. I agree that such things can add flavor to the game, they're good, but I'm vastly less certain they constitute a substantive barrier to GM story telling. Anyway, beyond that, if they are derived entirely from the mind of the GM in the first place, its more a matter of temporal sequence of when backstory was invented, yesterday or today. I am not sure that's a big distinction.

And, in general, contingencies are rarely going to hinge on a specific trait or resource constraint, etc. of one person or group. The world is complex, contains many factions and operatives, and whatever. With total backstory authority, setting authority, etc. you can generally bring about whatever eventuality you desire, assuming the players don't outright dig in and fight you to the death on it! Even then, the GM in some sense prevails, though obviously we're getting into degenerate cases at that point.

Again, this is why dungeons WORKED in the simple GM-directed paradigm of Gygaxian play, walls and such don't have loopholes or ambiguity. You either can or cannot proceed west, it isn't really a matter of interpretation, even if it was decided at some point by the GM; he's now just as constrained as the PCs.
 

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