Ranger Variant (updated)

[drowdude]

Even if single-level abuse doesn't happen much in your campaign, how do you explain to the first-level fighter that the ranger is better at fighting than he is?

The ranger at first level has 2 more feats; if the ranger chooses the overly-weak Toughness feat, he's better in all ways than the fighter. He has the same number of basic combat feats (2, or 3 if human), Track, more skill points, more hit points, etc.; what's more, the fighter isn't using his heavy armor proficiency until he can afford heavy armor, usually by 2nd or 3rd level.

I guess you just skimmed right past the rest of my post huh? The part where I go on to explain that the class is balanced for *my* campaign.... which is essentially what we are discussing here.
I am not saying "You should use this", I am saying "I am using this, any opinions?"


The Heavy Armor Prof comes into play right off the bat usually IMC since I start PCs out at 3rd to 5th level rather than 1st.


Opinions are nice and rants can be entertaining, but it would be nice if you are going to point out something that you think is flawed to follow that with a suggestion of what you would do to alleviate the problem as you see it.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Opinions are nice and rants can be entertaining, but it would be nice if you are going to point out something that you think is flawed to follow that with a suggestion of what you would do to alleviate the problem as you see it.

For the record it's an opinion, not a rant. If you'd like my suggestions I'd be happy to give them:

* Give the Wilderness Lore bonus only to the Master Huntsman and Survivor
* Take Precise Shot from the archer
* Remove Skill Focus (Wilderness Lore) from the Master Huntsman and limit Alertness to light or no armor
* Change Favored Enemy so the Master Huntsman gets the bonus every 4 levels instead of every 5 levels
* Remove weapon of the deity from the spell list
* Move one of the Survivor feats to level 2
* Give the feat Endurance to the Wilderness Runner on level 2
* Add Lightning Reflexes to the Survivor's list of bonus feats

They're not perfect by any means, but I think they'd help.

 

[drowdude]

For the record it's an opinion, not a rant.

Sorry, it was more of a general statement than a pointed comment.

If you'd like my suggestions I'd be happy to give them:

* Give the Wilderness Lore bonus only to the Master Huntsman and Survivor
* Take Precise Shot from the archer
* Remove Skill Focus (Wilderness Lore) from the Master Huntsman and limit Alertness to light or no armor
* Change Favored Enemy so the Master Huntsman gets the bonus every 4 levels instead of every 5 levels
* Remove weapon of the deity from the spell list
* Move one of the Survivor feats to level 2
* Give the feat Endurance to the Wilderness Runner on level 2
* Add Lightning Reflexes to the Survivor's list of bonus feats

They're not perfect by any means, but I think they'd help.

Some of these suggestions are very good and I will take them under consideration.


On Weapon of the Deity, I included it mainly because the rangers powers are most often tied directly to a specific deity and at the time the spell seemed appropriate.
However I can see a good reason to follow your suggestion here... rangers do not necessarily favor that deity's weapon in the manor that a cleric would.


BTW, the Dragon Generator roxxx dude. Nice work.

 

[CRGreathouse]

On Weapon of the Deity, I included it mainly because the rangers powers are most often tied directly to a specific deity and at the time the spell seemed appropriate.
However I can see a good reason to follow your suggestion here... rangers do not necessarily favor that deity's weapon in the manor that a cleric would.

I suggested taking it out because of the PH's statement about rangers getting their power from nature itself (like druids); if they get power from deities, I have no objections.

BTW, the Dragon Generator roxxx dude. Nice work.

I'm glad to hear you like it. Could I possibly convince you to stop by the Software forum and read the thread there about the dragon generator? I'm looking for which new features people want most...

 

[drowdude]

I'm glad to hear you like it. Could I possibly convince you to stop by the Software forum and read the thread there about the dragon generator? I'm looking for which new features people want most...

Sure thing. Incidentally, it will be my first time looking at that forum

 

[drowdude]

Several changes have been made.

Removed Speak Language from the class skill list.

Altered the Enhanced Wilderness Lore so that it caps at +7. This combines nicely with Skill Focus for that nice round +10 bonus.

Significant changes to several paths.

 

[CRGreathouse]

This looks very nice.

I have two broad categories of balance concerns: internal and external. I'd like to make sure each of the paths is about as powerful as the others, and that the ranger is no more powerful than the other classes.

Internal Balance:
The Dual-Wielder is by far the weakest path. I suggest Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat on level 9 - allowing them to take Improved Crit on that level with their normal feat.

External Balance:
The ranger is suddenly more powerful than all classes except (perhaps?) the cleric. If this is intentional (you want to encourage people to play rangers instead of other classes), OK; otherwise, something needs to be done. Perhaps a small fix like dropping them back to 4 skill points and trimming their list would work; I'm not sure. Needs playtesting.

Potential Path Problems:

These are the worse abuses of existing paths I could think of off the top of my head. After a careful look, decide if you're OK with these possible abuses, or if something should be done. I don't think that all of these warrent changes, but they're trouble spots.

The Archer is still the strongest path. The key is to look at a Ftr2/Rgr2 (order: ranger, fighter (x2), ranger).

The Dual-Wielder abuse is the traditional Rgr1/FtrX. I'm not really worried, are you? Adding ITWF might help encourage takingranger levels, but I don't know.

I may have created a monster with the Survivor. While it seems balanced under normal conditions, there's great potential for abuse with Masters of the Wild*. Kudos if you figure this one out on your own.

I like the Master Huntsman, but is a Rgr1/RogX overly powerful? This is especially important if the ranger has 6 skill points instead of 4.

Mounted Warrior - I can see a lot of paladins taking a ranger level first for good skills (max Spot!) and two useful feats, allowing the paladin to spend remaining feats on Spitited Charge and weapon-specific feats.

Wilderness Runner - I don't see any way to abuse this at all. Do you? If a character wants +20 from Rgr1/Bbn1, more power to them.

* The Forsaker prestige class. Suddenly, it's possible on level 2 - at minimal cost. The class is especially powerful on low-magic worlds; I don't know the level on yours, but think carefully about this.

 

[drowdude]

This looks very nice.

Thanks

Internal Balance:
The Dual-Wielder is by far the weakest path. I suggest Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat on level 9 - allowing them to take Improved Crit on that level with their normal feat.

Well, maybe, I did open it up so that they work for staves and double weapons.

External Balance:
The ranger is suddenly more powerful than all classes except (perhaps?) the cleric. If this is intentional (you want to encourage people to play rangers instead of other classes), OK; otherwise, something needs to be done. Perhaps a small fix like dropping them back to 4 skill points and trimming their list would work; I'm not sure. Needs playtesting.

Yes. I suppose this version of the ranger is quite powerful... but not quite so bad as Monte's I think

Playtesting is a must I agree.

Potential Path Problems:

The Archer is still the strongest path. The key is to look at a Ftr2/Rgr2 (order: ranger, fighter (x2), ranger).

I agree that it is the strongest path. However all the feats the ranger/fighter takes that use Point-Blank-Shot as a prereq will carry with them the armor restriction. Not a massive drawback of course, but it is there.

The Dual-Wielder abuse is the traditional Rgr1/FtrX. I'm not really worried, are you?

Nope. 2-WF has proven itself to be less troublesome than the big-guy with the greatsword time and again...

I may have created a monster with the Survivor. While it seems balanced under normal conditions, there's great potential for abuse with Masters of the Wild*. Kudos if you figure this one out on your own.* The Forsaker prestige class. Suddenly, it's possible on level 2 - at minimal cost. The class is especially powerful on low-magic worlds; I don't know the level on yours, but think carefully about this.

Yes. I had noticed that as well. My fix here is to add an additional requirement to the PrC should someone express intrest in it (BAB +5 or something of that nature).

I like the Master Huntsman, but is a Rgr1/RogX overly powerful? This is especially important if the ranger has 6 skill points instead of 4.

I dont think this combo would really be overly powerful. Effective yes. But as with all things it will have to be seen in action to truly know.

Mounted Warrior - I can see a lot of paladins taking a ranger level first for good skills (max Spot!) and two useful feats, allowing the paladin to spend remaining feats on Spitited Charge and weapon-specific feats.

Moving the extra feat to 2nd level would help a bit here I think. Although, I really dont have a problem with the Paladin-Ranger combo

Wilderness Runner - I don't see any way to abuse this at all. Do you? If a character wants +20 from Rgr1/Bbn1, more power to them.

My sentiments exactly.


Thanks for the insighful feedback!

 

[CRGreathouse]

Moving the extra feat to 2nd level would help a bit here I think. Although, I really dont have a problem with the Paladin-Ranger combo

I don't have much of a problem with the combo either, but it's too quick - one useful feat/level is *more* than enough. I'd move it to level 4 and add Spirited Charge to the list.

As for the archer, light armors only isn't much of a restriction for a high-Dex class. Perhaps non-metal only, or move the second feat to level 4? I'm reaching here.

**********

The class looks good to me, as far as I can tell without playtesting. The two changes I suggested above are my best advice without playtest, but that could come up with interesting results. For example, the Dual-Wielder's ability to use double weapons could be surprisingly powerful, especially if the Tempest PrC is modified in the same way. Who knows?

As I said, it looks good "as is" or with minor tweaks. If you ever playtest (or even jsut use these in a campaign), please post the results.

 

[drowdude]

For example, the Dual-Wielder's ability to use double weapons could be surprisingly powerful, especially if the Tempest PrC is modified in the same way. Who knows?

I intend to lift that restriciton off the Tempest class as well. I have no problems with a double-sword weilding Tempest

As I said, it looks good "as is" or with minor tweaks. If you ever playtest (or even jsut use these in a campaign), please post the results.

Will do. Actually there are rangers in both of the campaigns I am running right now. A ranger 6 / monk 1 in my OA campaign, and in my FR campaign the Barbarian just picked up a level of ranger, although I dont think he is gonna stick with it for the long haul as he has his eye on the Frenzied Berserker PrC

In the OA campaign the monk-ranger comes off so far as being competent and multi-talented but hasnt outshined the other characters at all (a Shugenja and a Monk/Tattooed Monk).