D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

Hang on - so you're saying that it is disparaging to be compared to girls playing princess? But not boys playing cops and robbers? Or have I misunderstood?

You have completely misunderstood. Those are the same. The implication is childishness and has nothing to do with gender. Cops and Robbers play would also be disparaging.

Jesus guys. Get off the gender thing already.

 

[AnotherGuy]

It's an option but I don't think it's a "should" as an absolute - many RPG systems has locking picking as a "you can't attempt this again until X happens, it is beyond your current ability".

Yes and that reason (X happens) needs to makes sense to me and my table if I'm working under the sim banner.

EDIT: You can try again after you level does not work for sim.

If you could just keep rerolling until you succeed with no consequence to failing why call for a roll in the first place?

My point exactly! So a dead-end in the lock-picking exercise needs to/should provide consequence whether it be time lost, lockpick broken, lockpick stuck, lock broken etc.

A simple "No" is IMO unacceptable.
The example provided a "No" with no consequence/follow-up.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, for instance, the rather scornful rejection of anything that doesn't work the way the speaker accepts (e.g. dismissing cited evidence that the claim that the most immediate cause is often not how real people talk about causation); the numerous times people (including yourself) have besmirched my ability to trust or interact with others; the repeated situations where users have openly ignored corrections about how games they don't play (like Burning Wheel or Dungeon World) in order to continue making the same point they previously made; the user who repeatedly and actively antagonized me, personally, while making sure doing so was juuuuuust nonspecific enough to not be worthy of an infraction.

I could probably list more if I went and trawled through the thread, but they're there.

And, just to you know? The things that are being quoted ARE meant to be at least compatible with publishing in academia. You're the one ascribing haughtiness; you correctly identified what voice the authors were going for, you just assumed they were therefore judging you.

To be fair, I do have a tendency to get defensive. Maybe you're right.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, you are asking him to coin new jargon here rather than using well understood terms from outside of the hobby - given the general tenor against academic terms and desire for casual communication, that seems counterproductive.

The original people who coined those terms were also using them in a derogatory manner. I guess it's okay to use derogatory terms if you aren't the ones who made them up. That's not something that I've ever heard is okay, but since so many people here are arguing just that, it must be true.

These are not neutral academic terms.

 

[Maxperson]

What I find most objectionable is that mainstream RPGing tends to get associated with terms for simple Children's games in general.

Not RPGing, traditional and simulationist play. Other styles don't get the same treatment. Traditional play is "playing to find out what's in the DM's notes" or "Princess play," but narrative play isn't "Being overly concerned about character" or "children's story hour."

You can tell from the terminology chosen by the original authors which styles they preferred and which they looked down upon. The same goes for those who continue to push disparaging terminology rather than changing it to something neutral

 

[AnotherGuy]

You have completely misunderstood. Those are the same. The implication is childishness and has nothing to do with gender. Cops and Robbers play would also be disparaging.

Jesus guys. Get off the gender thing already.

I think what is more mature is for us adults to not to be so easily offended.
And I was definitely guilty of this before so I'm not saying anything that didn't apply to me either at some point.

Years ago I was offended by the term GM decides.
I am not offended by these words anymore. Princess Play, Shared-Storyhour whatever.
What we should be doing is rather see what ideas and techniques we could adopt from each other, explaining why our hard lines exist and sharing experiences with different games etc. because Lord knows some of us just do not have the time to explore the plethora of games which exist particularly when we have a long-standing table in a multi-year campaign.

 

[AlViking]

Not RPGing, traditional and simulationist play. Other styles don't get the same treatment. Traditional play is "playing to find out what's in the DM's notes" or "Princess play," but narrative play isn't "Being overly concerned about character" or "children's story hour."

You can tell from the terminology chosen by the original authors which styles they preferred and which they looked down upon. The same goes for those who continue to push disparaging terminology rather than changing it to something neutral

It's pretty obvious that traditional simulationist play is pretty much the same as playing with your GI Joe dolls and narrativist play is enlightened and seeking a deeper understanding of the human psyche in a lot of the writing we see. If it wasn't for that persistent use of the terminology I'm not sure I would bother me much. But the clear subtext that some games are more enlightened, meaningful and meant for mature adults is why it matters to me.

 

[Maxperson]

How is it disparaging?

"the term “childish play” is not intended to be disparaging. I do not think that playing in a childish manner is a shameful activity. If you do, you might need help, because you’re criticizing children being childish. The name comes, of course, from the common role-adoption game that children like to play, which I believe to present a creative agenda that is essentially similar to the enjoyment a roleplayer gets from a role meaningful to them. That is, it is exciting to pretend to be a princess or a fireman or rock star or astronaut or whatnot because you get to pretend to engage in exciting activities and be treated differently from usual."

I've made a few changes in bold to help you see the problem. The term implies childishness for those who enjoy simulationism, and then engages in a blatant fallacy by saying that if you do find it to be disparaging to be compared to a child, you need help because you're really attacking children for being children.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think what is more mature is for us adults to not to be so easily offended.
And I was definitely guilty of this before so I'm not saying anything that didn't apply to me either at some point.

Years ago I was offended by the term GM decides.
I am not offended by these words anymore. Princess Play, Shared-Storyhour whatever.
What we should be doing is rather see what ideas and techniques we could adopt from each other, explaining why our hard lines exist and sharing experiences with different games etc. because Lord knows some of us just do not have the time to explore the plethora of games which exist particularly when we have a long-standing table in a multi-year campaign.

I just find the term GM decides to not capture the nuances around how the gm decides and how the players influence those decisions.

Also the gm decides plenty in narrative style style play as well

 

[Maxperson]

I think what is more mature is for us adults to not to be so easily offended.
And I was definitely guilty of this before so I'm not saying anything that didn't apply to me either at some point.

Years ago I was offended by the term GM decides.
I am not offended by these words anymore. Princess Play, Shared-Storyhour whatever.
What we should be doing is rather see what ideas and techniques we could adopt from each other, explaining why our hard lines exist and sharing experiences with different games etc. because Lord knows some of us just do not have the time to explore the plethora of games which exist particularly when we have a long-standing table in a multi-year campaign.

I don't see it as more mature to accept disparaging comments just because people refuse to stop using them. You've apparently become acclimated to it, but I'm not going to just accept them. It's on the people who use those terms to learn to stop using them and use more neutral terminology instead.