D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

What I find most objectionable is that mainstream RPGing tends to get associated with terms for simple Children's games in general.
The implication is childishness
“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
― C.S. Lewis
 

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“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
― C.S. Lewis

So now instead of just calling the game childish you want to call the people who dislike their game being disparaged children? I think the hole is getting deeper.
 



Not everyone wants that lesson applied via a game mechanic that demands the situation be handled a certain way. Personally, my preference is for fairly casually-related advice. Having a mechanic you're supposed to use feels too hard-coded for my tastes.

Of course, if you like it yourself there's obviously nothing wrong with that.
So? Not everyone wants to flounder, and not everyone wants advice instead of rules. And every game mechanic demands that situations are handled in a certain way.
 


No. It may not have been your intention but it’s saying you are childish if you care what people think/say about your hobbies.
An adult worries about what someone says about their hobbies IF those hobbies are being used as an attack on your comportment or competence.

Only a child worries that someone is using mean words to attack a hobby simply because they identify with it.
 

"the term “childish play” is not intended to be disparaging. I do not think that playing in a childish manner is a shameful activity. If you do, you might need help, because you’re criticizing children being childish. The name comes, of course, from the common role-adoption game that children like to play, which I believe to present a creative agenda that is essentially similar to the enjoyment a roleplayer gets from a role meaningful to them. That is, it is exciting to pretend to be a princess or a fireman or rock star or astronaut or whatnot because you get to pretend to engage in exciting activities and be treated differently from usual."

I've made a few changes in bold to help you see the problem. The term implies childishness for those who enjoy simulationism, and then engages in a blatant fallacy by saying that if you do find it to be disparaging to be compared to a child, you need help because you're really attacking children for being children.

Meh, playing pretend is a bit childish, no? I don't really see that as disparaging.

I mean, if you see it that way, okay... then I guess I that explains your take. But it seems a bit of a stretch and is literally what he's clarifying in the quote. It requires ignoring his point in favor of maintaining your own interpretation.
 
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The idea that's it silly if a player establishes it, but perfectly reasonable if the GM establishes it, is to me a manifestation of an assumption that play should be predominantly GM-driven.
That is, of course, an opinion.

But saying that the background world is described predominately by the GM does not make the game GM-driven.

I don't remember. I don't think it came up. As best I recall, once the PCs had established their bearings in the dungeon, by reading the runes, they headed down to the Vault of the Drow.

(Also, in case it's not obvious, there was no map and key in this game. MHRP doesn't use map and key resolution.)
That was rhetorical, mostly, but this very much is my point. If there's no known exit, then you have the PC/player not only create the meaning out of nowhere, but you quite possibly had them determine the shape of the dungeon by creating, or at least pointing out, the exit--something they should have no knowledge of. Neither the PCs nor players created the dungeon. They were not its architects or builders. Why on earth would they know where anything is? Why should they?

I'm assuming that MHRP is Marvel Heroic Roleplay. I admittedly am more of a DC girl, but I don't think there are a lot of dungeons in Marvel comics, and those that exist--counting locations like Doom's castle, Prof X's seemingly labyrinthine school, etc.--change layout as the plot demands. So of course there's no map and key resolution. You're almost certainly trying to put a square peg in a round hole here by using MHRP for fantasy without taking the genre switch into consideration.

I'm not sure that all do. For instance, some "cozy" RPGs seem to emphasise tea parties and the like.
You're assuming that conflict = combat and that's not the case. Conflict can also mean disagreements or minor disasters. Like oh no, the souffle has fallen and her Ladyship will be here in less than an hour! What will we do? The term rising conflict can be exchanged for rising tension or problems in RPGs.

Some dungeon crawls, also, don't really have any sustained rising conflict. Eg White Plume Mountain is more like a series of puzzles. There are very local moments of rising conflict - eg you take of your amour to get through the heat induction tunnel trap, and then get beaten up by the ghouls - but it's not sustained in any way. (And it does not cross a moral line.)
Conflict--tension, problems--shouldn't rise all the time anyway. Players and GMs get burnt out and it makes the issue unimportant. You don't want to conflict (or tension or problems) to be sustained throughout the whole thing. An action movie that is 100% action is generally dull--there's no room for character, plot, or anything else, even the minor amounts of it you tend to get in an action movie. Same for RPGs. They should be a mix of slow and fast, calm and tense.
 

No. It may not have been your intention but it’s saying you are childish if you care what people think/say about your hobbies.

Maybe I'm misreading the quote. But to me, it isn’t calling you childish for caring what people say about your hobbies, but instead advocating that it's childish to be ashamed of what you genuinely love, just because it might seem “childish” to others.

It seems more like saying, "don’t let other people’s rudeness, mockery, or judgment threaten your joy." Which seems applicable to the thread.
 

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