D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Lanefan]

I have yet to see any example provided of where "Fail Forward"--as actually used by real people playing an actual game, not a hypothetical invented by its critics who neither know nor play any of the systems where such a thing is formally spelled out--results in the thing you describe.

@hawkeyefan gave one not far upthread from his own game, where on a failed roll to climb [something, I forget what] he narrated it as a success: they got to the top only it took longer than it should have.

 

[Enrahim]

Of course you know what you meant to say.

I can only go by what you actually said, and the context in which that statement occurred.

It's quite clear, now, that you meant something rather different from the words you used--particularly given the context around the word "perfectly", which bespoke of a very strong sense, not the weak minimalist sense.

One would almost say that this reflects a situation where you made a choice that was neither eminently rational nor eminently pragmatic, but instead ran counter to your intended aims!

Now you have more info on what I meant to say, and hence you can from now on go by what I actually meant to say.

Miscommunication happens all the time. I am not particularly gifted with words. I will be more careful with the word "perfectly" in the future, as I seemingly do not know how to properly use it in the intended weak sense without inviting this possible misunderstanding.

I think this is a "conflict" based on lack of knowledge rather than any lapse of rationality on either side. But that doesn't matter that much, as I think this entire incident make for a rather poor story anyway.

 

[Gimby]

I don't know. Possibly no one in this thread. I'm not about to go scouring the internet looking for the names of people who have; I'm simply making sure my position is clear.

As I mentioned, it seems to me that people suggesting that all GMs should be fans of the players are either pushing an idea that their preference is best or have watered the phrase down so much it's not especially useful. I'm simply addressing both possibilities.

Or alternatively it's advice against certain styles of GMing, for example "soft railroading" where successes aren't honoured because it's not felt that the win has been "earned" yet, leading to repeated tests until failure. It can be argued that it's just fairly standard good GMing advice but we know from discussions on this board and elsewhere that this isn't always followed.

 

[Enrahim]

How so? What would your concern be?

Not sure at what level to answer this question so I try with the high abstract approach to one of my major concerns first. One of the major things I like with TTRPGs is seeing how players use the freedom of the media to come up with surprising and clever approaches to situations. The problem is that these by nature are not obvious at first glance. The players usually need time and motivation to examine a situation deeply together in order to come up with the real grains of gold.

In the games I have run the motivation for such has typically been that there has been a real (or percieved) danger in between them and their ambition. They are driven by their character's ambition, but also care for their character's safety.

In these situations it is usually very easy to find something interesting to do. Usually quite easy to find something interesting that do not completely disregard safety as well. This advice seem very explicitely to encourage to grab one of these interesting ideas and just go with it - moving the game along in an ever thrilling rollercoaster - but missing out the chance of producing pure gold.

I can understand how many find that (much) more exciting than my prefered kind of game. After all, even from early preeteen I recognised I was quite unusual in prefering long form chess over blitz.

And I realise now I can give you one concrete as well...... LEEEEEEEROY JENKINS!!!!!!!!

 

[pemerton]

It's not objectionable. It's irrelevant. Far, far, FAR more important than the characters' lives, is the players' enjoyment. When the players are having fun, the characters' lives are not boring.

I don't need some funkily named redundant rule.

The rules is not addressed to you. It's addressed to GMs of Apocalypse World.

 

[pemerton]

it seems to me that people suggesting that all GMs should be fans of the players are either pushing an idea that their preference is best or have watered the phrase down so much it's not especially useful. I'm simply addressing both possibilities.

I don't think there are any such people, are there?

 

[SableWyvern]

Or alternatively it's advice against certain styles of GMing, for example "soft railroading" where successes aren't honoured because it's not felt that the win has been "earned" yet, leading to repeated tests until failure. It can be argued that it's just fairly standard good GMing advice but we know from discussions on this board and elsewhere that this isn't always followed.

Well, if the GM isn't ruling fairly, I don't feel they need to be fan of the PCs to do so -- they just need to be fair.

To me, being a fan comes with the implication that you're biased in their favour. Even if that's not the way it was originally intended, I've certainly seen people use it that way.

Again, I don't disagree with the advice, I just don't feel, "Be a fan of the PCs" is a good way of expressing this, and I have certainly seen many people to use it to mean a lot more than just being fair or reasonable.

 

[pemerton]

@hawkeyefan gave one not far upthread from his own game, where on a failed roll to climb [something, I forget what] he narrated it as a success: they got to the top only it took longer than it should have.

Most of the people who run in a race lose. Nevertheless, they make it to the finish line.

In @hawkeyefan's example, the character failed to make the climb in time.

 

[SableWyvern]

I don't think there are any such people, are there?

There are numerous people in this thread, and elsewhere, who I've seen using "be a fan" in a way I feel is too watered to down to be particularly useful. The quote you provided earlier seems to meet this criteria for me, as well.

And there are plenty of people in the hobby who firmly believe their way is absolutely the best and should be the only way; I really don't think that's in dispute at all.

So, yes, I feel that both types of people I mentioned definitely exist.

 

[SableWyvern]

I do feel I should acknowledge that, whether I like it or not, "be a fan of the players" is a phrase that's here to stay, and I'm aware that no amount of gnashing of teeth on my part will change that.