Which is the point I keep harping on. That might be a definition that you are using, but, that definition is WRONG. That's not what that word means. And insisting on using that word only makes communication impossible. Because NOTHING about what you described is actually part of the D&D rules. Not a single thing. Nothing in the D&D rules actually supports what you are talking about. It might be how you approach the game which sounds fantastic and a lot of fun, but, it is in no way part of D&D. You could use EXACTLY the same approach with Savage Worlds, or a thousand other games. Because what you are talking about has nothing to do with the actual game you're playing.
We also might not agree on what complexity in games amounts to. The way you talk about "complexity" seems to associate it with giving detailed results, but giving detailed results isn't tied to complexity. For example, the RQ Hit Location table is somewhat detailed, but it is not complex.
This has come up a number of times, so, I'd like to pull this out once again.
It's not about giving "detailed" results.
It's about giving ANY information at all. It doesn't have to be massively detailed or whatnot. But, simulation must tell the user SOMETHING. If the only thing we get is the results, without any actual indication of how those results occured, then there's no simulation here. You got 200 dollars for passing Go. Congratulations. It's not a simulation of anything.
You're right, it doesn't have to be very complex. But, it generally will have to be a little bit more complex, simply to give the user any information to work with.
A fundamental distinction seems to be between preferring to tell a story, and preferring to explore a subject.
And that has been observed repeatedly, over decades of thought on RPG play.
In some respects what remains hardest to understand is how baffling those with one preference can find the other. Sustaining false dichotomies between 'some given quality' and player enjoyment.
I remember having a discussion with a friend a while back about a movie we had both seen recently. I liked the movie, the story, the emotions and feelings it evoked. She was all about analyzing how shots were framed, the movie pacing and other technical details and techniques used. When I went to the movie I lost myself in the story and visuals, I was immersed in the moment. For her it was all about analyzing how it was done. We both enjoyed the movie, just from completely different perspectives. Neither of us was right or wrong, but we also didn't really try to label our approaches although I'm sure other people have.
When I play a game I want to feel like I am a character in a fantasy action hero movie. I want Mission Impossible not Saving Private Ryan even though I know Mission Impossible (I can't believe they're still making those) is totally silly at times and only occasionally takes a nod to reality.
Obviously there's a lot of overlap between styles. But as GM having to follow rules on how the environment, monsters, NPCs and organizations interact and react to what the characters say and do while focusing on guiding play to achieve certain goals dictated by the game doesn't work for me. In my games I simply provide the sandbox and the toys. The players can only interact and manipulate those toys through their characters.
I call those different approaches narrativist vs simulationist approach because those are the best labels I've seen, even if they will never be adequate.
Which is the point I keep harping on. That might be a definition that you are using, but, that definition is WRONG. That's not what that word means. And insisting on using that word only makes communication impossible. Because NOTHING about what you described is actually part of the D&D rules. Not a single thing. Nothing in the D&D rules actually supports what you are talking about. It might be how you approach the game which sounds fantastic and a lot of fun, but, it is in no way part of D&D. You could use EXACTLY the same approach with Savage Worlds, or a thousand other games. Because what you are talking about has nothing to do with the actual game you're playing.
There are multiple definitions and usages of many words*, not just game terms. You don't get to decide for me how I am using the term when I have repeatedly qualified my usage, repeating your opinion doesn't change anything. I create the fictional world but once we're in play I'm refereeing the game from the perspective of the world and it's inhabitants with no overarching goals or eye on the narrative. The players interact with the world only through the words and (simulated) actions of their characters.
Meanwhile your usage? I think it's kind of pointless because the level of accuracy you demand is impossible while also being on a sliding scale based on nothing more than opinion and preference. Even your example of "This is not a simulation" biplane game is a crude simulation. Did we have biplanes? Yes. Did they shoot down balloons and other planes? Yes. Did biplanes fly but have limited turning radius while their main weapon was a machine gun? Also yes and yes. Is it as accurate a depiction as Rise of Flight? No, they had extremely limited hardware in the old game to work with. But even Rise of Flight doesn't model how the internal combustion engine works in any level of detail, it just plugs in numbers for how fast the plane is and if the engine affected flight dynamics in some other way. No simulation will never be 100% accurate. Meanwhile unlike Mario Kart neither one of those grants power-ups because they hit a shiny spinning object.
So if you don't have anything else to say other than "You're wrong, I'm right", I don't see much value in continuing.
*
verb (used without object)
ran, run, running.
to go quickly by moving the legs more rapidly than at a walk and in such a manner that for an instant in each step all or both feet are off the ground.
to move with haste; act quickly.
Run upstairs and get the iodine.
to depart quickly; take to flight; flee or escape.
to run from danger.
to have recourse for aid, support, comfort, etc..
He shouldn't run to his parents with every little problem.
to make a quick trip or informal visit for a short stay at a place.
to run up to New York;
I will run over to see you after dinner.
to go around, rove, or ramble without restraint (often followed byabout ).
to run about in the park.
to move, roll, or progress from momentum or from being hurled, kicked, or otherwise propelled.
The wheel ran over the curb and into the street.
Sports.
to take part in a race or contest.
to finish in a race or contest in a certain numerical position.
The horse ran second.
to be or campaign as a candidate for election.
to migrate, as fish.
to run in huge shoals.
(of fish) to migrate upstream or inshore from deep water to spawn.
Now that it's fall, the salmon are running.
to move under continuing power or force, as of the wind, a motor, etc..
The car ran along the highway.
(of a ship, automobile, etc.) to be sailed or driven from a safe, proper, or given route.
The ship ran aground.
to ply between places, as a vessel or conveyance.
This bus runs between New Haven and Hartford.
to move, glide, turn, rotate, or pass easily, freely, or smoothly.
A rope runs in a pulley.
to creep, trail, or climb, as growing vines.
The ivy ran up the side of the house.
to come undone or to unravel, as stitches or a fabric.
these stockings run easily.
to flow, as a liquid.
Let the water run before you drink it.
to flow along, especially strongly, as a stream or the sea.
The rapids ran over the rocks.
to empty or transfer contents.
The river ran into the sea.
to appear, occur, or exist within a certain limited range; include a specific range of variations (usually followed byfrom ).
Your work runs from fair to bad.
to melt and flow or drip.
Wax ran down the burning candle.
Golf. (of a golf ball) to bounce or roll along the ground just after landing from a stroke.
The ball struck the green and ran seven feet past the hole.
to spread when applied to a surface, as a liquid.
Fresh paint ran over the window molding onto the pane.
to spread over a material when exposed to moisture.
The dyes in this fabric are guaranteed not to run in washing.
to undergo a spreading of colors.
materials that run when washed.
to flow forth as a discharge.
Tears ran from her eyes.
to discharge or give passage to a liquid or fluid.
Her eyes ran with tears.
to operate or function.
How does your new watch run?
Cars run on gasoline.
to be in operation.
the noise of a dishwasher running.
to continue in operation.
The furnace runs most of the day.
to elapse; pass or go by, as time.
Time is running out, and we must hurry.
to pass into or meet with a certain state or condition.
to run into debt;
to run into trouble.
to get or become.
The well ran dry.
to amount; total.
The bill ran to $100.
to be stated or worded in a certain manner.
The minutes of the last meeting run as follows.
Commerce.
to accumulate, follow, or become payable in due course, as interest on a debt.
Your interest runs from January 1st to December 31st.
to make many withdrawals in rapid succession, as from a bank.
Law.
to have legal force or effect, as a writ.
to continue to operate.
to go along with.
The easement runs with the land.
to proceed, continue, or go.
The story runs for eight pages.
to extend in a given direction.
This road runs north to Litchfield.
to extend for a certain length.
The unpaved section runs for eight miles.
to extend over a given surface.
Shelves ran from floor to ceiling.
to be printed, as on a printing press.
Two thousand copies ran before the typo was caught.
to appear in print or be published as a story, photograph, etc., in a newspaper, magazine, or the like.
The account ran in all the papers.
The political cartoon always runs on the editorial page.
to be performed on a stage or be played continually, as a play.
The play ran for two years.
to occur or take place continuously, as a movie.
The picture runs for two hours.
to pass quickly.
A thought ran through his mind. Her eyes ran over the room.
to be disseminated, circulated, or spread rapidly.
The news of his promotion ran all over town.
to continue or return persistently; recur.
The old tune ran through his mind all day.
to have or tend to have or produce a specified character, quality, form, etc..
This novel runs to long descriptions.
This family runs to extreme in everything from foot size to skin sensitivity.
to be or continue to be of a certain or average size, number, etc..
Because it clearly was an "errata". They didnt have the distribution technology to effectively distribute otherwise at that point in time. That way we living in the happy future can take advantage of the superrior way of experience the dragonlance saga, closer to the way the authors intended, than those poor first adapters jumping on the bandwagon before DL5 got published
Now we even are lucky enough that we can learn about this critical improvement from web forums even without having to read trough the entire series before starting play!
We know that it clearly not errata. It's just in normal type, but if you turn the page there is a section that is dark that is labeled errata for DL 1-4. In the errata it doesn't say to add this language to prior modules. It's just language that they added in later that does not apply to DL 1-4 if the PCs have already died.
It's also something that doesn't apply to the Heroes of the Lance 100% of the time. The group has to want to play the novels as the novels happened. If they don't opt to play that way, but still want to play the Heroes of the Lance, those heroes can die like any other PC even in DL 5.
This is not some blanket special no death thing that the modules just have. It's simply a group agreement not to have PCs die, which any group can opt to do at any time in any edition with any module, or even no module.
This is blatant One True Wayism. There's nothing holy or inherently better about play that involves deep introspection or a narrative approach. It's just how you prefer to play. It's an opinion and nothing more, so people who don't play that way who have other opinions have opinions just as valid and as serios as your opinions.
When you make statements like that, you come off as very arrogant, having an attitude of superiority about your play and inferiority about the play of others.
There are multiple definitions and usages of many words*, not just game terms. You don't get to decide for me how I am using the term when I have repeatedly qualified my usage, repeating your opinion doesn't change anything. I create the fictional world but once we're in play I'm refereeing the game from the perspective of the world and it's inhabitants with no overarching goals or eye on the narrative. The players interact with the world only through the words and (simulated) actions of their characters.
Meanwhile your usage? I think it's kind of pointless because the level of accuracy you demand is impossible while also being on a sliding scale based on nothing more than opinion and preference. Even your example of "This is not a simulation" biplane game is a crude simulation. Did we have biplanes? Yes. Did they shoot down balloons and other planes? Yes. Did biplanes fly but have limited turning radius while their main weapon was a machine gun? Also yes and yes. Is it as accurate a depiction as Rise of Flight? No, they had extremely limited hardware in the old game to work with. But even Rise of Flight doesn't model how the internal combustion engine works in any level of detail, it just plugs in numbers for how fast the plane is and if the engine affected flight dynamics in some other way. No simulation will never be 100% accurate. Meanwhile unlike Mario Kart neither one of those grants power-ups because they hit a shiny spinning object.
So if you don't have anything else to say other than "You're wrong, I'm right", I don't see much value in continuing.
*
verb (used without object)
ran, run, running.
to go quickly by moving the legs more rapidly than at a walk and in such a manner that for an instant in each step all or both feet are off the ground.
to move with haste; act quickly.
Run upstairs and get the iodine.
to depart quickly; take to flight; flee or escape.
to run from danger.
to have recourse for aid, support, comfort, etc..
He shouldn't run to his parents with every little problem.
to make a quick trip or informal visit for a short stay at a place.
to run up to New York;
I will run over to see you after dinner.
to go around, rove, or ramble without restraint (often followed byabout ).
to run about in the park.
to move, roll, or progress from momentum or from being hurled, kicked, or otherwise propelled.
The wheel ran over the curb and into the street.
Sports.
to take part in a race or contest.
to finish in a race or contest in a certain numerical position.
The horse ran second.
to be or campaign as a candidate for election.
to migrate, as fish.
to run in huge shoals.
(of fish) to migrate upstream or inshore from deep water to spawn.
Now that it's fall, the salmon are running.
to move under continuing power or force, as of the wind, a motor, etc..
The car ran along the highway.
(of a ship, automobile, etc.) to be sailed or driven from a safe, proper, or given route.
The ship ran aground.
to ply between places, as a vessel or conveyance.
This bus runs between New Haven and Hartford.
to move, glide, turn, rotate, or pass easily, freely, or smoothly.
A rope runs in a pulley.
to creep, trail, or climb, as growing vines.
The ivy ran up the side of the house.
to come undone or to unravel, as stitches or a fabric.
these stockings run easily.
to flow, as a liquid.
Let the water run before you drink it.
to flow along, especially strongly, as a stream or the sea.
The rapids ran over the rocks.
to empty or transfer contents.
The river ran into the sea.
to appear, occur, or exist within a certain limited range; include a specific range of variations (usually followed byfrom ).
Your work runs from fair to bad.
to melt and flow or drip.
Wax ran down the burning candle.
Golf. (of a golf ball) to bounce or roll along the ground just after landing from a stroke.
The ball struck the green and ran seven feet past the hole.
to spread when applied to a surface, as a liquid.
Fresh paint ran over the window molding onto the pane.
to spread over a material when exposed to moisture.
The dyes in this fabric are guaranteed not to run in washing.
to undergo a spreading of colors.
materials that run when washed.
to flow forth as a discharge.
Tears ran from her eyes.
to discharge or give passage to a liquid or fluid.
Her eyes ran with tears.
to operate or function.
How does your new watch run?
Cars run on gasoline.
to be in operation.
the noise of a dishwasher running.
to continue in operation.
The furnace runs most of the day.
to elapse; pass or go by, as time.
Time is running out, and we must hurry.
to pass into or meet with a certain state or condition.
to run into debt;
to run into trouble.
to get or become.
The well ran dry.
to amount; total.
The bill ran to $100.
to be stated or worded in a certain manner.
The minutes of the last meeting run as follows.
Commerce.
to accumulate, follow, or become payable in due course, as interest on a debt.
Your interest runs from January 1st to December 31st.
to make many withdrawals in rapid succession, as from a bank.
Law.
to have legal force or effect, as a writ.
to continue to operate.
to go along with.
The easement runs with the land.
to proceed, continue, or go.
The story runs for eight pages.
to extend in a given direction.
This road runs north to Litchfield.
to extend for a certain length.
The unpaved section runs for eight miles.
to extend over a given surface.
Shelves ran from floor to ceiling.
to be printed, as on a printing press.
Two thousand copies ran before the typo was caught.
to appear in print or be published as a story, photograph, etc., in a newspaper, magazine, or the like.
The account ran in all the papers.
The political cartoon always runs on the editorial page.
to be performed on a stage or be played continually, as a play.
The play ran for two years.
to occur or take place continuously, as a movie.
The picture runs for two hours.
to pass quickly.
A thought ran through his mind. Her eyes ran over the room.
to be disseminated, circulated, or spread rapidly.
The news of his promotion ran all over town.
to continue or return persistently; recur.
The old tune ran through his mind all day.
to have or tend to have or produce a specified character, quality, form, etc..
This novel runs to long descriptions.
This family runs to extreme in everything from foot size to skin sensitivity.
to be or continue to be of a certain or average size, number, etc..
We have a language, a dictionary that drives what words mean, and the purpose of all that is to facilitate accurate useful communication. Deciding on your own what words mean is like deciding to speak in a foreign language and expecting non-speakers of that language to understand you.
You can make your own definitions for words but then you aren't communicating in English. At that point it's become another language that only you know and everyone is going to keep arguing with you becuse ite to the English language they'll always go with those definitions when trying to understand you.
Note: I DO NOT MEAN POLITICAL CONSERVATISM. This is not a thread about politics.
I mean "conservatism" as in resistance to change. You see it all the time -- people complaining about the new art or aesthetics, literally saying things like "if they used the old art I would be in." It is so mind boggling to me.
D&D is a living game. OF COURSE the new books etc are going to adapt to the new market. If you literally won't play a newer version because tieflings or whatever, then it isn't for you. Don't demand it regress to the era you discovered D&D because that is what makes you feel good; play the version you discovered.
I don't liek every artistic or design choice either, but it isn't up to me to demand D&D coddle my unchanging preferences. If I want to re-experience BECMI (the edition I grew up with) I can just play that. And so can you.
All creatures are wired to resist change because nature change usually means pain and death. It hard coded into our DNA. Te default reaction to almost any change anywhere is no. You can hate it. but is a part of nature and the human condition.
I think for sure there's a weird consumerism thing in this hobby where people feel they must reflexively switch to the new edition when it comes out. No, if you like the old edition, keep playing it!
This is also the fault of publishers who continually put out revised editions for purely financial reasons
