D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Would they? Have you ever even seen that metagame aspect of Traveller mentioned by anyone before me in the post you quoted? I mean, I never have - and I've read quite a bit about Traveller, and first played it around 1980.

Considering most on the simulationist side in this thread have at best skimmed the rules of traveler and at worst taken your descriptions of it as accurate I don’t know why you’d find that surprising.

Upthread, you liked this post:
That poster doesn't seem to have noticed the metagame possibility in Traveller's damage rules.

Assuming they know the rules well either 1) he’s just talking about the non-metagame aspects of the rules or 2) he doesn’t view metagame mechanics as pushing a thing away from simulationism.

Would you have noticed it if I hadn't pointed it out to you?

If I ever critically read the game and thought about it then I think yes. But I cannot say for certain.
 

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That makes it sound like you have the premise that actor stance/"immersive"/"I am my character" play is a necessary component of sim play. Is that accurate to your beliefs?

I dunno. Sim play is a really broad term. I don’t think it’s worth exploring commonalities in games that simply feature simulation because I don’t think there are any serious ones other than their use of simulation.

I’d say you have to at least break down sim play into subcategories to get anything useful out of the discussion and I would agree that one of those useful subcategories is a focus on actor stance in a simulation.
 

I dunno. Sim play is a really broad term. I don’t think it’s worth exploring commonalities in games that simply feature simulation because I don’t think there are any serious ones other than their use of simulation.

I’d say you have to at least break down sim play into subcategories to get anything useful out of the discussion and I would agree that one of those useful subcategories is a focus on actor stance in a simulation.
Yea, I think there are definitely more categories than that. But it's also why I'm not a fan of using the GNS model as a strict taxonomy of TTRPGs. I think that there are a lot more games being played that don't pursue any sort of "creative agenda" than those that do. (Although I think most game systems being made in the last 20 years, that aren't revisions of existing systems, are focused on delivering a specific agenda of play.)

You don't have to have a bunch of players agreeing "In this game, we're going to explore the GM's conception of a particular setting" (probably the most pure articulation of a sim agenda) to have a game where the players still have strong aesthetic preferences for "I don't want the setting to feel like it's being made up on the spot, I want it to feel as if it's already been heavily detailed prior to play."
 

I don't really want to defend GNS but a big part of the idea of the creative agenda is that it can be implicit.

I mean I think the theory suggests it's better if it's made explicit so that everyone is all on the same page, but the idea is that it's always there even if it's conflicted.

It's there to explain why Bob is frustrated when Jane shuts down his efforts to have his bard spout made up lore about the game world, while Ken is annoying everyone else by constantly offering them unwanted advice about how they can make their character builds more effective.
 

Okay, cool. It sounds like you’re making a distinction between standard 5e as written and what you play.

What do you do to make it more sim-focused? Do you add some rules or change some or just focus on certain things?
Well first of all I play Level Up, which has more sim-focused rules added to play, like the journey system. I add stuff from other games and my own head on top, mostly on the GM side, to make the setting feel more verisimilitudinous to me and my players. And because sim is my focus, I use a more granular method of design for worldbuilding and points of interest than WotC tends to do.
 

That already gives us an enormous number of points of comparison. It is, for example, why almost no one who advocates a "simulationistic" perspective directly uses the word "realism", because they have understood that that term is inherently vulnerable to a very obvious attack, one that is almost impossible to defend against: it's a fantasy, it has magic and dragons etc. (Of course, I find that many, many, many of the arguments that attempt to evade this are simply "realism with more steps", e.g. trying to use "verisimilitude", which lacks the "it has to be like Earth" element...only to then smuggle back in the "it has to be like Earth" element through ideas like naturalistic reasoning or "well the correct starting point is Earth unless told otherwise". In other words, they are literally just restating "realism", but trying to make it sound like it isn't just "realism" restated by splitting a problematic concept into two parts that seem milder in separate form.)
One cognitive model of fiction argues (from evidence) that people maintain an internal representation of the real world, an internal representation of the imagined world, and a meta-representational layer that among other things keeps track of which is which.

Given that picture

W is the set of facts fitting the real world model​
W' is the set of fictional facts fitting the imagined world model​
A candidate fact F can be counted "realistic" if it is true in W' or if not in W' nevertheless true in W
Seeing as this is a cognitive rather than scientific model, inaccuracies are tolerated according to norms (the "folksy common sense" a poster once used to describe this sort of realism)​
That this type of truth-telling is covered by possible worlds theory helps to see that there is an additional quality - "accessibility" - that tracks whether W and W' are sufficiently similar to make this sort of comparison. One could imagine another possible world - W'' - and that it could be the case that some F' was true of W' or if not in W' nevertheless true of W''. (Although that wouldn't fit the cognitive model, which maintains worlds that are "accessible" from one another.)

I think this addresses your objections - that there should be both dragons (a fact whose truth is established through its membership in W') and let's say apples (a fact whose truth is established through its membership in W.) And this isn't something uniquely describing imaginary worlds in games, it extends to fiction. Even dropping the cognitive model aspects of it, the possible worlds description still holds.
 

Yea, I think there are definitely more categories than that. But it's also why I'm not a fan of using the GNS model as a strict taxonomy of TTRPGs. I think that there are a lot more games being played that don't pursue any sort of "creative agenda" than those that do. (Although I think most game systems being made in the last 20 years, that aren't revisions of existing systems, are focused on delivering a specific agenda of play.)

If one takes rpg play as an inherently creative activity then any agenda for rpg play would be a creative agenda. That would be my view. Now there might be less ‘pure’ agendas which is what I think typically get construed as no agenda but I think there’s just an extremely nuanced and thus hard to articulate agenda there.

You don't have to have a bunch of players agreeing "In this game, we're going to explore the GM's conception of a particular setting" (probably the most pure articulation of a sim agenda) to have a game where the players still have strong aesthetic preferences for "I don't want the setting to feel like it's being made up on the spot, I want it to feel as if it's already been heavily detailed prior to play."

Two thoughts. That’s why I say simulation for simulations sake is rarely a primary priority. Though it certainly could be for someone.

I’d also note ‘exploring’ is also a very broad term and often people interested in exploration have particular modes of exploration in mind that aren’t necessarily conveyed by that very broad term.

These 2 thoughts might be somewhat in conflict. I’ve not worked that out yet.
 

It's also sometimes argued that D&D is a genre in itself, which could mean it is simulating itself.

Where I balk however is at situations where the rules themselves possibly don't simulate the implied world. Do the people in the setting know that a high level Fighter in the setting has nothing to fear from a peasant with a crossbow or that they can survive a 100 metre fall?

If the answer is no then that's a distinction from something like Earthdawn where all of the D&D type tropes are specifically and clearly setting elements
Can we try to find an example arguing against simulation that doesn't involve hit points? Just as a change of pace?
 



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