D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

The difference is important. Hit points are just abstraction. Falling a 100ft and being able to stand up and dance a jig is a fictional game outcome.

It doesn't matter what rules got you there. If it's a game artifact and not a reflection of what the reality is supposed to be in the setting it seems you have a problem with Sim.

In D&D it might be escalating hit points that make a character completely indifferent to a crossbow pointed at your face - in Warhammer it may be that you are a Dwarf with a ridiculously high Toughness. It doesn't necessarily matter how you got there, if you are trying to simulate a world (or genre) where people should be afraid of crossbows aimed at them you have a problem.

That's why in my game, if someone blithely ignores something deadly, they are voluntarily forgoing most of their hit points. That 120 hit point barbarian will survive that 200 foot fall, but because he's grabbing at branches, rocks, etc. and slowing himself down, getting super lucky(like those rare skydivers), divine intervention, etc. If he just decides to step off of that cliff, he has decided to give up his hit points except for what a commoner would have and will be rolling up a new character.

The same goes if someone just stands there and lets someone shoot a crossbow into their head. If they aren't trying to live, they aren't using their hit points.

 

[Micah Sweet]

100%.

I do run some games with a more sim agenda, and they have strict diegetic class identities. But even in those games, I have systems in place to accomodate the host of NPCs who have some kind of strong ability or abilities but don't have the corresponding supernatural resilience of high HPs.

It all comes back to hit points, huh? We can't stay away from it for long.

 

[Don Durito]

Yeah, its just not hard for aborbtion/deflection of damage and avoidance being conflated to produce some really odd results sometimes.

To be fair armour and DR in many more abstract systems can feel just as odd.

I mean if you stab someone wearing a breastplate with a rapier you either need to go through it or do no damage - the idea that you do less damage doesn't really make all that much sense.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Here’s a classic - a two-foot short sword injuring an 80-foot red dragon.

Proportionally that can definitely do some damage if hitting in the right place. Also: magic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Anyone living after being struck by a boulder hurled by a giant!

This where hit points obviously can't just be meat. It's all scratches and grazes until you hit zero. That's how I do it.

 

[Maxperson]

It's difficult to ignore HPs in D&D because so many of the resolution systems are explicitly tied into using ablation of HP as their primary resource.

I'd go with next to impossible in 5e where hit points are a major part of how the game is balanced.

 

[AlViking]

The character in the fiction doesn't know that they are in no danger. The player in D&D does know that. Hence, not "diegetic".

I don't assume the character thinks they're in danger. They know what they are capable of.

EDIT:
See just above: it's not only about genre emulation. The status of hp as sim/"diegetic" depends upon what bits of it are part of the fiction, and what are not.

Superman's invulnerability is part of the fiction: statting up Superman with masses of defensive ability, resilience to injury etc is "diegetic".

Batman or Conan' invulnerability is a story-telling conceit: statting up Batman or Conan with masses of defensive ability, resilience to injury, etc is not "diegetic". It's metagame.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Just focusing on what you say about characters:

(1) I do that - and have done that - with Marvel Heroic RP. I have built Marvel heroes using the system. I have built superheroes dreamed up by my kids using the system. I have built Gandalf using the system: Middle Earth/LotR RPGing using Cortex+ Heroic . So I think this sets a very low bar for "sim".

(2) There are RPGs that don't stat out characters by reference to their abilities in the way you envisage in your post: Agon and In A Wicked Age are two examples that occur to me. Apocalypse World to quite an extent also. But in those systems, the things you are talking about still happen because game participants imagine and narrate them - just as the GM does vis-a-vis the setting and the situation in your game. So I don't think it is necessary for "sim".

Those aren't games I play (or care to), so it's not really relevant to my interests. I'll stipulate to your point being accurate though. What do I know?

 

[Micah Sweet]

The character in the fiction doesn't know that they are in no danger. The player in D&D does know that. Hence, not "diegetic".

EDIT:
See just above: it's not only about genre emulation. The status of hp as sim/"diegetic" depends upon what bits of it are part of the fiction, and what are not.

Superman's invulnerability is part of the fiction: statting up Superman with masses of defensive ability, resilience to injury etc is "diegetic".

Batman or Conan' invulnerability is a story-telling conceit: statting up Batman or Conan with masses of defensive ability, resilience to injury, etc is not "diegetic". It's metagame.

I would never stat Superman's invulnerability as hit points. Damage reduction (and a lot of it) all the way.

 

[AlViking]

Which is why most systems use an armour-as-damage-resistance model. One where punching someone on the breast plate does adjusted no damage - but hitting them with a Warhammer will still hurt even through the DR. Armour doesn't make you better at dodging

You can use it as DR but I think it has other issues. Meanwhile we agree. Armor does not make you better at dodging. Well made plate mail may not make you invulnerable but you do have to strike at the weak points to do damage. If you're off by a few inches, the wearer takes no real damage.