D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[clearstream]

Armor + dex, but where is the base 10? Before or after? And the shield is +2, but it doesn't say after the armor, before the armor, or somewhere in the middle.

I get that they stopped going for kitchen sink levels of detail, but that just means that there will be more variation among games as DMs make various rulings. If DM #1 does it 10+armor+dex+shield, that's not wrong. If DM #2 does it armor+dex+10+shield, that's also not wrong. Same with DM #3 not giving a hoot and just making it AC 17 with no granularity at all.

The point is that the game doesn't specify an order. The closest you get is 10+dex, but that doesn't mean that AC granular instead of hit for damage or miss completely.

By specifying an order that is absolute for my game, I have a slightly higher level of simulation than the base AC vs. attack roll gives.

To me the order is explicit in the text. Each armor value is a fixed number other than shields, which reads "+2". Reading that as "+2 12" say, makes no sense. Reading it as "12+2" makes perfect sense.

 

[clearstream]

10 is specifically unarmored. That's why barbarians and monks have unarmored defense. Those are 10(unarmored) + dex + other stat bonus. The monk also has unarmored movement.

So when we look at the armor chart that means hide only gives you +2 over unarmored, but is listed at 12.

I was mindful of barbarian and monk, and again the ordering is clear from the text. Even were it not, it is precisely the kind of thing a DM is explicitly empowered to rule upon. So at your table you are doing exactly as the rules require if you believe it to be ambiguous and make a ruling.

 

[Maxperson]

To me the order is explicit in the text. Each armor value is a fixed number other than shields, which reads "+2". Reading that as "+2 12" say, makes no sense. Reading it as "12+2" makes perfect sense. Here we can agree to disagree.

What's the difference between 12+2 and 2+12? Those equal one another. But as you say, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Maxperson]

I was mindful of barbarian and monk, and again the ordering is clear from the text. Even were it not, it is precisely the kind of thing a DM is explicitly empowered to rule upon. So at your table you are doing exactly as the rules require if you believe it to be ambiguous and make a ruling.

See my edit of that post. It sticks natural armor, which is still armor, after both the base 10 and the dex bonus.

 

[clearstream]

What's the difference between 12+2 and 2+12? Those equal one another. But as you say, we can agree to disagree.

The text does not list "2+" it lists "+2" so you are changing the text in order to read it the way you have committed to.

 

[Lanefan]

I got asked if I thought simulation doesn't exist in RPG's. And it did remind me that I have tried to drift D&D into sim territory in the past. I'm a HUGE age of sail nerd. I LOVE the idea of piracy and ship combat in D&D. I SOOOO want to do it.

Ditto, ditto, and ditto re trying for a maritime campaign.

So, back in the 3e days, I picked up a FANTASTIC book (one of my absolute favorite 3pp books and it's companion book is great too) called Broadsides!! It's a very detailed book about ships starting from about 13th century to about 18th century ships. The combat rules are extensive and very, very deep in sim territory. Tacking against the wind, wind strength, movement, different actions taken during ship combat, different scales to use depending on the distance between ships, it's a sim player's dream. Fantastic stuff.

Who put this book out? And how did I miss it at the time?

 

[Enrahim]

10 is specifically unarmored. That's why barbarians and monks have unarmored defense. Those are 10(unarmored) + dex + other stat bonus. The monk also has unarmored movement.

So when we look at the armor chart that means hide only gives you +2 over unarmored, but is listed at 12.

Yes, but if you are splitting terms you can also do fun stuff like say
AC = 0 + survival instinct (4) + base dodging capability (5) + skin (1) + armor (2) + first dex mod point (1) + shield (2) + remaining dex modifier (2)

It might be this is matching what you are doing, and that you have good reasons for doing so. You asked about a base 10, and I pointed out that doesn't exist as a concept in 5ed RAW. If you want to introduce such a concept, I guess you are the one that need to specify where it should go in the summation you house rule.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, but if you are splitting terms you can also do fun stuff like say
AC = 0 + survival instinct (4) + base dodging capability (5) + skin (1) + armor (2) + first dex mod point (1) + shield (2) + remaining dex modifier (2)

It might be this is matching what you are doing, and that you have good reasons for doing so. You asked about a base 10, and I pointed out that doesn't exist as a concept in 5ed RAW. If you want to introduce such a concept, I guess you are the one that need to specify where it should go in the summation you house rule.

It does and doesn't have it as a concept. Unarmored is AC 10. Hide is AC 12. 12-10=2, which is how much hide helps you over having no armor. Clearly that base 10 is included in the armor numbers on the chart.

 

[clearstream]

See my edit of that post. It sticks natural armor, which is still armor, after both the base 10 and the dex bonus.

It's not clear to me what you mean by that post. Base ACs can differ, but the come from what armor you are wearing (including no armor). "Unarmored" gives a base AC just as armor such as Hide does. To which shield gives +2, then "plus your Dexterity", and then for Barbarian "plus... your Constitution". Thus missing a Barbarian by their Constitution modifier means that their sheer health and stamina mitigated the attack, above bloodied one might picture they leap out of the way (stamina) below one might picture a cut or bruise they're too tough to notice (health).

 

[clearstream]

Yes, but if you are splitting terms you can also do fun stuff like say
AC = 0 + survival instinct (4) + base dodging capability (5) + skin (1) + armor (2) + first dex mod point (1) + shield (2) + remaining dex modifier (2)

It might be this is matching what you are doing, and that you have good reasons for doing so. You asked about a base 10, and I pointed out that doesn't exist as a concept in 5ed RAW. If you want to introduce such a concept, I guess you are the one that need to specify where it should go in the summation you house rule.

Survival instinct to me would be covered by will to live, which means that it is your HP above bloodied. Base dodging capacity would be your Dex modifier and possible dodge action. Skin and armor are the same (unarmored is an "armor class".)

Base 10 for unarmored is a concept in 5e. (See the Rules Glossary.)