D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Can a Dragon fly in an anti-magic sphere or a Giant walk?
The 5e Sage Advice clarified that there is Magic(spellcasting, spell like abilities, magical powers, etc.) and magic(background magic that infuses everything). The latter isn't subject to anti-magic spheres and is what allows those things to happen.

"You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures

• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about."

It's a viable explanation should you choose to accept it."
 

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Except that you, as GM, can do whatever you want.
Sure, in that the GM can make a swarm of pixies appear and interfere with the player, irrespective of what the player rolls on the dice.

But being fair is at the core of the GMs job, and part of that is keeping the game logical and grounded, so that the players can make rational decisions. If pixies appear, it’s only because the pixies have a reason to do so.

What I have heard of Apocalypse games is that, with nothing to keep the world rational and grounded, the players try to outdo each other with ridiculousness. Which means they rarely last beyond one session. Whereas my D&D campaigns last years.
 

Sure, in that the GM can make a swarm of pixies appear and interfere with the player, irrespective of what the player rolls on the dice.

But being fair is at the core of the GMs job, and part of that is keeping the game logical and grounded, so that the players can make rational decisions. If pixies appear, it’s only because the pixies have a reason to do so.

What I have heard of Apocalypse games is that, with nothing to keep the world rational and grounded, the players try to outdo each other with ridiculousness. Which means they rarely last beyond one session. Whereas my D&D campaigns last years.

Who have you heard this from? Which games did they play? What happened in these sessions?
 


When the rules are not useful, they should not be used. This is not the same as saying that they should be broken. This is saying that they should be invoked when they are needed, and set aside when they are not. The simple example, which I'm pretty sure everyone here generally agrees with, is when a player proposes a course of action which simply should succeed (or should simply fail, but I prefer to pick the positive example here). The purpose of, for example, a skill check or an attack roll, is to determine a result when we don't know what the result should be. But in those cases where we already know that an action simply should succeed, flat, no questions asked, then....the rules for checks are therefore irrelevant in that moment. There is no need to invoke the associated rules; this is not breaking them, it is respecting that the situation at hand has not actually called for their use. Likewise, if it is very obvious that the party simply cannot lose a battle anymore, but it might take a dozen rounds to resolve by slowly whittling down the remaining stragglers, openly asking, "Should we just call this fight over?" is not breaking the rules of combat, it's saying, "We know what the rules will produce. Do we need to go through all the steps, or can we skip them?"
In order for a rule to be set aside and not be breaking the rule, the rule itself needs to be worded with the ability to set it aside when the DM feels it's needed. Otherwise, it's breaking the rule.

When I talk about breaking the rule or altering it when circumstances make it inappropriate to use, it's the same thing you are talking about there. In that particular circumstance the rule as it is written is not needed and should be set aside completely, in part, or in part and altered a bit to make it fit the circumstance appropriately. This is not a change to meet some desire of mine regarding how the fiction will turn out.

From that paragraph, it sounds like we are all or mostly on the same page there.
The place where this principle is most put to the test is, in my not-so-humble opinion, when the GM strongly feels that a certain result should (or should not) happen, but the rules have already been invoked and clearly produced that outcome...but only to the GM. That is the moment when "fudging" is a temptation. "Fudging", at least as I define it, is the act of secretly (the secrecy is extremely important) breaking the rules in order to disregard result A (the one the rules indicate) in order to create result B instead (the one the GM prefers, for whatever reason), and then concealing this fact from the players so they cannot find out that the rules were not actually followed.

If any of these three elements--the secrecy, the disregarding, or the concealment--are not actually done, then the action isn't "fudging" (as I define it). So, for example, a GM looking down at the die someone rolled and realizing they shouldn't have asked for a roll at all? If they just come clean and admit this, and propose an alternative, that's not fudging--it's admitting that the rules should never have been invoked, and thus weren't appropriate to begin with. Or, if the GM swallows their dislike and lets the result stand, obviously that's not fudging. Or, if the GM does change the result, even non-openly, but makes it practically possible for the players to learn that and how it happened (not merely theoretically; the players really could find out that something changed), then it is not fudging--it is instead inserting new diegetic elements which change the situation.

My standard examples for this are "the party kills a boss-creature 'too quick' and the GM wishes for the boss-creature to last longer" and "the party has TPK'd, especially in an utterly unforeseeable or ridiculous way, and the GM wants to do something about that". The former is not a positive for the PCs (a fight they "should have" won is not over yet) while the latter is (a fight which "should have" terminated them produces a different result). IMO, there are three alternatives to fudging in these situations which still achieve all of the results of fudging (and more!) without any of the downsides thereof. They are:
You probably won't approve, but there is only one set of circumstance where I will fudge.

Very, very rarely, through no fault of its own, such as bad decision making or bad tactics, the party finds itself the victim of incredibly bad luck coupled with me having incredibly good luck. They can't roll above single digits and are missing the monster(s) and critical saves, while at the same time I'm making saves, hitting left and right, and rolling multiple criticals against them.

When that happens I will fudge a few rolls. Some hits become misses, and some crits become normal hits. I do want to stress that this is not to allow the group to win or even have an advantage. It's just to give them a fighting chance rather than TPK them over extreme luck.

As I said, those particular circumstances are very rare. The vast majority of the time the extreme bad luck and extreme good luck are not present together Those few times where they are together, often the group has made some sort of mistake as well, such as in the last campaign when the group down most of their resources and hurt, decided to attack the drow priestess and her cohort who they knew were ready for them, instead of leaving the dungeon and resting first. I held nothing back and fudged nothing. They won with only a single PC death, and they only did that well because their dice were on fire that night. It should have been a TPK, but wasn't.

My campaigns last about a year. I've never seen the extreme bad/good luck coupled with no mistakes more than once in a campaign, and usually I go for 2-3 campaigns before it happens.

Edit: Forgot to respond to this.
  • Make clear within the world that something mysterious and weird has just happened: make the divergence from the rules' result diegetic. E.g., "The goblin-priestess took a lethal blow, you KNOW it was a lethal blow, she should be dead. But then she stood back up again, bleeding profusely from her sternum, eyes aglow in violet, babbling madness in Abyssal." Now it's a mystery--but, importantly, a mystery you as DM have time to build a good, well-constructed answer for.
That's something that I would never, ever do. To me making up something so that I can keep a BBEG alive longer is far more egregious than the rare instance of fudging. If the players' strategy and tactics, even good luck, have made the BBEG fight short, that's awesome for them. It should be honored and rewarded, not held back.
 
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Yeah. The mechanics only tell you the result. It's completely up to the GM--completely, totally, absolutely arbitrary--what that result actually means, how that result happened.
I mean, no. That's not true in the slightest. The narration said that the person was climbing the cliff. The mechanics said that the PC fell a distance of X feet and took Y damage. The narration cannot be completely arbitrary as it must conform to both the prior narration and the mechanics of falling X feet for Y damage.
Nothing actually prevents the GM from saying it was meddlesome pixies, except the GM herself. Genuinely nothing.
Except the fictional circumstances and the social contract. Does the DM have the power to just poof pixies into existence to force the fall and then poof them back out again? Yes. Would that be DM abuse of power and authority? Also yes.

That's probably why in 42 years of playing with dozens of DMs, I've never seen something like that happen. DMs like when the narration and mechanics match as they are intended, so they generally don't do abuse their power to force absurd results.
 

Obliquely, I think the three or so types of fact play a part in justifying the "expert-GM" of FKR. We have

Type-I facts - things true in our real world and in the imagined world​
Type-II facts - things not true in our real world but true in the imagined world​
Type-III facts - facets of things true in the imagined world, that are of kinds that match things true in our real world​
I can think of (at least) three ways a human GM may trump a designed mode.

Textual elements of game systems -- such as written rules -- don't implement themselves: even the highest fidelity type-I facts embodied in a TTRPG text must be interpreted and implemented in play by a human.​
A human appointed to author and validate type-II facts in an imagined world, is performing a creative act that is not in competition with any sort of expert-system for fidelity to reality.​
Allocating complex facts to types-II and -III and deciding when to migrate which facets of them from one to the other, is a hard problem for written rules and principles to solve. It involves intuitions and reasoning not easily commited to paper (as we are robustly demonstrating in this thread!)​
Folk have characterised the 'contest' between a written out list of rules (the game system text) and a human moderator as one that the human moderator can't have the expertise on every possible topic to 'win'. However, it seems mistaken to see the comparison as -- through the proxy of game system -- one between sole-GM and a host of experts. Play is process not product.
I don't think there are any Type-I facts in an RPG.

Even something as simple as saying that the PCs are breathing air isn't going to accurately portray all of the gas mixture here in the real world, which can vary slightly. It's not going to get the PCs correct oxygen absorption rate for the circumstances, heart rate, breathing rate, etc.

Everything fact in the fiction is going to be Type-II or Type-III.
 

The 5e Sage Advice clarified that there is Magic(spellcasting, spell like abilities, magical powers, etc.) and magic(background magic that infuses everything). The latter isn't subject to anti-magic spheres and is what allows those things to happen.

"You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures

• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about."

It's a viable explanation should you choose to accept it."
Sounds pretty much like what I said, mundane, mundane weird and magic.

And if in the case of a situation when it is uncertain where something belongs - such as a Fighter surviving a 100 ft fall - how does this help us decide?

Is a higher level fighter mundane or mundane weird?

There is nothing in such an explanation to truly help us decide edge cases. It's really just mapping the existing territory.
 

Sounds pretty much like what I said, mundane, mundane weird and magic.

And if in the case of a situation when it is uncertain where something belongs - such as a Fighter surviving a 100 ft fall - how does this help us decide?

Is a higher level fighter mundane or mundane weird?

There is nothing in such an explanation to truly help us decide edge cases. It's really just mapping the existing territory.
For me if the high level fighter is doing things that are beyond the realm of what is possible for even the peak of their race, they've basically trained to the point where that ability is supernatural. Think Zoro in One Piece where he trains so much with his swords that he can slice people from a hundred or more feet away. He has mundanely trained his ability into the supernatural range.
 

Except that you, as GM, can do whatever you want.

That's been repeatedly reiterated, remember? The rules are your slave, not the other way around.

You can do whatever you want. That was the whole point you and others were absolutely insistent upon.

So you can declare whatever you want. The fact that the rules talk about skill doesn't mean squat. You can do whatever you want. You argued that. Not me.
"Can do" and "do" are two very different things. The power and authority of the DM can be abused, which is what you keep describing. DMs are very rarely in the game to abuse their players, and even those very rare DMs that are in it to abuse, don't last long since their players will leave.

The power and authority the DMs use is done judiciously at appropriate times and in appropriate ways.

Jumping the shark to say how DMs are going to have dragons appear out of nowhere and bash the climber over the head with a pixie until he falls is not helpful to these conversations. At best they are just a distraction. At worst they are an irrelevant derailment.
 

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