D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

That is very much untrue. The reason you show your work on a math exam is because the answer is largely irrelevant. The point of the exam is to prove that you know the process for achieving that answer. The fact that your answer happened to be right could easily be a lucky guess. This is a problem teachers run into all the time when dealing with students and parents who completely misunderstand the point of testing. It's really frustrating.

Now, I agree that the narration does the simulative work. Totally agree. But, since your simulation isn't actually a simulation (you cannot show your work), then your system isn't a simulation. It's just a series of "the DM makes stuff up". Your "reasonably" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

Basically, a simulationist system that provides no actual process information is just Calvinball. It's "cops and robbers" with a thin layer of paint.

And, to prove this, I would point to every single actual simulationist leaning system out there - GURPS, Warhammer Fantasy, Palladium systems, Role Master - which tell me that you are wrong. If it was perfectly fine for simulationist systems to not inform the narrative, why does every single sim system in existence disagree with you?
I don't agree with that.

When I was in school, I never, ever showed my work. I have a mental chalkboard where I can stick numbers until I need them, so I just did the process there and put the correct answer on the test. Not once did I ever receive a talking to by the teacher about showing my work so that they knew I got the process right. Being math teachers, they understood the probability of my guessing that many correct answers in a row and didn't bother asking to see my work.

Once in a while I did get talked to by a teacher about showing my work, because they thought I needed to get in the habit of it for higher math where it would be harder for me. They were right. Intermediate algebra is where I started having trouble.

D&D is like that. If we can reproduce the correct answer 100 times in a row, we don't need to show the work in order for people to understand that there isn't any guesswork going on.
 

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I was under the impression that secondary sources were always considered to be suspect and not acceptable as the only basis of theories of history. That's why I said "secondhand" sources. Primary sources are held in much higher regard, and a mixture of primary and secondary is (AIUI) considered best. It's like how pure carbon is an awful building material and nobody should ever use it, iron is a much better matieral, but an alloy using the right balance of iron and carbon--steel--is better than either alone.

Unfortunately, sometimes, all we have is pure carbon--secondary sources. When that happens, we do our best to not build anything particularly load-bearing out of it.
I don't know what you mean by "secondary source" here. Do you mean the accounts of historians? Or do you mean contemporaneous documents? I'm not a trained historian, but the people/colleagues I know who do historical work rely on the latter - they visit archives etc.

For instance, I've never heard of anyone trying to understand the causes of WWI by unearthing fragments in Belgium and France. They read documents. Likewise for trying to understand the war's social consequences. Looking at housing and urban design may be a part of this (eg who do houses after the war have dumb waiters?) but I think it is a relatively small part.
 

I don't know what you mean by "secondary source" here. Do you mean the accounts of historians? Or do you mean contemporaneous documents? I'm not a trained historian, but the people/colleagues I know who do historical work rely on the latter - they visit archives etc.

For instance, I've never heard of anyone trying to understand the causes of WWI by unearthing fragments in Belgium and France. They read documents. Likewise for trying to understand the war's social consequences. Looking at housing and urban design may be a part of this (eg who do houses after the war have dumb waiters?) but I think it is a relatively small part.
I was (perhaps incorrectly) drawing a distinction between sources in general and physical artifacts, which may not be actually something real historians do, but as that seems to be something you are reasonably comfortable with, I'll stick with treating "sources" as documents or expressions of some kind, rather than artifacts, relics, clothing, etc.

"Primary sources" are directly about the topic at hand. For example, a collection of letters from WWI soldiers to their families back home (perhaps recovered from a cache of undelivered letters) would be primary sources, because they are the personal accounts of people about their own experiences or the things they've personally witnessed or done. Likewise, actual propaganda posters would be a primary source, albeit one understood through the lens of "this is what the government wanted the people to see" and the like. Being a primary source doesn't mean the source needs no interpretation, but it does mean that the source is to at least some degree direct evidence of something. An actual work of literature is also a primary source.

"Secondary sources" are sources which collected, analyzed, interpreted, and/or discussed other, primary sources, often (but not exclusively) ones that we no longer have. So, for example, the poetry of Sappho is almost totally lost to us for a variety of reasons (primarily, she wrote in a dialect that was difficult for Greeks of later centuries to read, so people lost interest in her work and there was seemingly little to no appetite for translating it), so we have almost nothing in terms of primary sources about what she wrote. We do, however, have numerous commentaries on her work by other, later authors, who extol the virtues of her writing. By being second-hand in this way, not the primary speakers' thoughts, but a secondary speaker's personal selection from amongst those thoughts, we are kept at arms' length, and may not have access to critical details that would have been very relevant to us but not very relevant to the secondary source's author(s). A book talking about events that happened a century before the author's birth, for example, would also be a secondary source even if it doesn't cite any primary sources directly.

Hence why I brought up Snorri Sturluson and his Prose Edda. TL;DR: Snorri was HUGELY biased for a bunch of reasons, particularly political and personal-power ones, and because he was writing centuries after Iceland had been fully Christianized, his accounts simply cannot be trusted as they are. The problem is...our only other sources are the Poetic Edda (better but still not good, because it's incomplete and again only written down after Christianization had been the norm for over a century), tiny fragments/snippets of text, and artifacts like carved depictions of horned figures or stuff that matches how Loki was tortured after he revealed that he caused Baldur's death.

Good history is built on primary sources (as I've used the term here, meaning documents/expressions) and artifacts (which actual historians would also classify as primary sources), and only employs secondary sources as corroboration or extension unless there simply is no other option. When history has to depend on secondary sources alone, a good historian will be very cautious about how they present their conclusions, because we know it's on much more shaky ground.
 

Oh I don't agree. The GM does not have a comparable role to a player in a conventional game, certainly not in trad play. If the GM is comparable to anything in bridge, it's the cards; they're a human filling in for the state of the game. Generally though, I don't think a lot of people play RPGs as games in the same sense bridge is played at all; they lack a fundamental end state and do not pursue a goal. The players are not doing the same kind of thing I do on my weekly card night. The GM might well be a variant of storyteller or entertainer in those cases.
The bolded portion is the only place I disagree with you. Players almost always have a goal or goals, whether self-set or the recue the princess adventure hook the players chose.
 

The same thing comes up in a sci-fir RPG. What happens if two PCs sit down to explain the special relativity thought experiments to one another, while travelling in their FTL space ship that accelerated from "stationary" to its current speed?
Don't all vehicles accelerate from stationary to their current speeds? I know when I press the gas pedal and my car is stationary, it goes to its current speed of 1mph, then 2, then 3, all the way up to 70ish on the freeways(when there's not traffic).
 

But you have insisted: absolute power. Absolute power does not discuss. It declares. That's, again, what MAKES it absolute.
That's not true. Absolute power just means you have the ability to do anything you want, not that you will do anything you want, or that you won't listen to others without that power.

The only thing that makes it absolute is that nothing can stop it if it is exercised. Nothing about absolute means that it doesn't discuss.
What odds?

By your own insistence, there IS no odds. The GM does what they like. Period. Not even "end of discussion", because there isn't any. Only absolute power and its application: "My way, or the highway."
The odds that the DM will listen to the discussion and very probably change things. His power may be absolute, but he is also human and presumably wants everyone in the game to be enjoying themselves.

You have a really odd view of what absolute power means. "My way, or the highway" isn't even close to the only way it goes.
 

I don't like this formulation at all. The GM is not an entertainer, a storyteller, etc - at least not in my experience of RPGing. The GM is a participant in a game, along with other participants.
I was including the GM in "everyone". The GM is a player too.

As for the other, you are wrong - the GM is an entertainer and a storyteller, along with all their other hats. And so are the other players.
Whether the game is fun or not depends on the intersection between how it plays and the tastes of the participants -
And it's the GM's job to determine how it plays, and tune the game to match the taste of the participants.
this is as true of any given RPG as it is true of bridge or football.
You ever tried playing Football without a referee? It pretty quickly descends into everyone arguing about the offside rule.
 

It hasn't been in any thread I've seen where that has come up. @pemerton's statement is so far outside of the ballpark, it's not even in the same city.

I don’t think it’s out of the ballpark to interpret the below and the tangent it brought about exactly as @pemerton did. I’d say his take was spot on.

What percentage of Narrativists came by their chosen preference via formative experiences with GM they didn't get along with to some degree, do you think? I'm hearing a lot of "I've had bad experiences with bad GMs" over and over from that "side".


You ever tried playing Football without a referee? It pretty quickly descends into everyone arguing about the offside rule.

I have played plenty of football (whichever kind you prefer) without a ref, and the games I was in never devolved into arguing about offsides.
 

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