D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

The entire fictional world is diegetic, because the players are experiencing it and so are the characters. The mechanics are diegetic because they correspond to those in fiction actions and events, so are part of how the players are experiencing those in fiction actions and events.
Two thoughts --

This first may be a quibble, but the fictional world is not diegetic -- it is the diegesis. Things strictly within the fictional world are (of course) diegetic.

For the second, I don't think correspondence or representation is sufficient for a mechanic to be diegetic. What we describe a character as doing in the fiction is different than the process we use to determine what the character is doing in the fiction. The results, as we describe them, are clearly diegetic -- the characters and the players (audience) experience them in the same way -- but I really don't think the processes are.
 

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I suspect most DMs simply handwave it that the faux-Chinese in their settings never invented gunpowder, for whatever reason, and leave it at that.
Okay...but do notice the implied double standard here. The real world--and its real technologies and real cultures--are supposed to be used as the basis for what does or doesn't happen. IRL history matters....right up until the point where the GM decides "nope, doesn't matter, that thing doesn't happen in this world". Which makes any argument built on "well this is how it worked IRL so it's how it should work in this fantasy world" inherently suspect.

If this is the tack we choose to take, that the GM may simply handwave real historical developments when those things are inconvenient for that GM's preferred tone, style, etc., then what we're talking about isn't realism or verisimilitude or even groundedness anymore. It's now an elective choice to project a specific style--which means appeals to realism aren't valid for justifying it anymore. It would be like appealing to "tradition" for why one uses real oxtail or real beef tendon in a Cantonese dish (which, to be clear, I find properly cooked beef tendon delicious, so this isn't a knock against traditional Chinese cooking!)...only to then say "I substituted cabbage instead of bok choy because I wasn't really feeling bok choy today."

To assert that one must do X thing because it is historical, only to then knowingly and intentionally break from history simply because history didn't suit you with thing Y, makes it look like that previous appeal to history was a disingenuous guise to justify, even reify, one's purely-subjective preferences. That calls into question whether history actually matters, or whether it is a convenient excuse only invoked to dismiss criticism, not as an actually principled rationale.

One could argue, given the prevalence of monsters and threats in a typical D&D setting that our own history never had to deal with, that such technological innovation never gets much of a chance to take root because those who might do it are too busy dealing with those threats instead.
Or one could argue that the constant threat of dangerous enemies--many of which can use magic--would mean that gunpowder, which was known for at least a century in China before they discovered it could be weaponized, would get weaponized a hell of a lot faster. Harder for mister fancy-pants wizard to mess up your day when you can fling as many "fireballs" as your alchemists can brew, while they're limited by daily spell slots.

Threats can absolutely delay progress or cause knowledge to be lost. (Take your pick of the crises that plagued Rome from like 250 AD onward, for example.) But threats can also massively accelerate progress, if they induce significant innovation in order to survive a threat. When considering an entire planet's worth of regions and cultures and conflicts, it seems unlikely that none of them would experience the acceleration effect.

That, and in a D&D setting "academia" is largely replaced and-or supplanted by "magical studies"; the brightest minds tend to either go into magic or adventuring, or both. Which means, it's more likely that a new spell will be invented to solve [generic problem x] than a new technology, with the side effect of keeping that solution gated behind the ability to cast spells and thus exclusive to the casters - who can then profit from it as they like.
Not necessarily. Every society still needs lawyers and physicians and architects. Magic is certainly tempting. I don't think it's SO tempting as to totally displace everything else.

Because if it were, by that standard, every smart person IRL would become a computer programmer or industrial engineer, and that very clearly doesn't happen.

Magic for the masses is the main thing that makes Eberron an atypical setting.
Sure, but by that same token, it's also a kind of "low-magic" setting! Because powerful mages are extraordinarily rare, but weak mages are quite common. Almost the reverse of the typical (allegedly) "low-magic" setting, where mages of all stripes are rare, but ultra-powerful ones seem to be confusingly common relative to the number of mages overall.

Think on it: in your own game, once they get to half-decent levels consider:
--- how often do the PCs engage in long-range travel?
--- how far do they go?
--- what are their means of getting there (and-or back)?
In order, at least for my world (which, like yours, is not 5e):
Regularly, because while teleportation circles exist, they're expensive and legally required to be registered with (local) government. If you use a clandestine one, you're risking steep fines (because taxing teleportation is a major source of government revenue). If you use a public one, you're risking people knowing exactly where you are at all times. If you use a private but registered one, you're trusting that person...and probably paying out the nose for a registered but untaxed private circle. Assuming that there even is a circle close to where you want to be!
Somewhere on the order of 100-ish miles outside of the closest major city, and depending on the exact location, ~50 miles away from the nearest settlement. The Tarrakhuna is an arid-to-desert region, so settlements can be few and far between, while the interesting locations are often far away from anywhere truly livable.
Usually, camelback, but sometimes they spend the coin for something fancier. The party does have one magical statuette that summons a warhorse shaped from magical energy, but it's got limited use before it needs to recharge, so it's mostly useful for "and back" if they have stuff to carry.

Your own setting might be different, but in a typical setting there will be other adventuring types doing similar travels, never mind mages and clerics who may well (and it's not unreasonable to think they would) have set up globe-spanning teleport or planeshift networks for their own use.
Even if they do, such things are terribly expensive and out of reach for most people....and usually require either familiarity with the destination, or an entrenched circle. Plane shift is an extremely powerful spell; it takes a world like the Forgotten Realms, which is absolutely gonzo in terms of how many powerful mages it has, for more than a tiny handful of people to be able to use such a thing, and even then, only a very limited number of times per day--plus rare, expensive, and difficult-to-acquire ingredients.

In my own game, plane shift isn't a spell. It may once have been, but it isn't now. There are only and exactly two planes known to be accessible to mortals other than the planet they live on (which in the local tongue is called Al-Duniyyah, lit. "that which is near" or "the place of examination".) Those are Al-Akirah, the elemental otherworld where Jinnistan is located amongst other things, and Ja'hannam, also known as Hell. The Safiqi priesthood (primary religion of this region) claims the existence of other planes as well (at the very least Jannah, "true heaven"), but no reputable planar research has ever demonstrated that any other such plane exists.

The party actually does know that many other planes exist, they've even specifically visited one, the artificial "perpendicular" plane of Zerzura--but other than that one plane, which was EXTREMELY dangerous until they rolled in, no other planes are accessible from their planet, because it's trapped behind some kind of barrier which prevents departure outward to other planes besides Al-Akirah. Their world is a prison for something powerful that really, REALLY wants to get out, but they don't know why yet.

End result: long-range travel would be considerably more common among the elite than in our own history, and often stupendously faster.
But that's the keyword: among the elite. Keep in mind, for most of human history, "the elite" was a very, very small proportion of the population. Even with the horrible income inequality we currently deal with, it's still a bigger proportion of all people than was ever the case in medieval times.

Local problems and concerns are much more immediate for the common folk, sure, and as they make up the vast majority of the population your point is valid. Elites and adventurers (who tend to make themselves elites pretty fast even if they didn't start out that way) would likely take a different view; and as play revolves around the particular adventurers that happen to have players attached, that "elite" view is what we as DMs find ourselves having to deal with.
I don't think the conflation between elites and adventurers is valid. Sometimes that will occur. It will depend on the characteristics of the setting. The thing is, most of the stuff the elites want isn't going to be interesting to adventurers. They want things like nice, stable, lucrative trade routes, cash crops, and (for the more bellicose) logistic advantages. Adventurers generally want to be going to places that are isolated, forbidding, and far away from most settled places...because if these dungeons etc. were close to settled places, they would have either destroyed those settlements, or the settlements would have destroyed and/or looted them, simply because they are mutually hostile.

Some adventurers will retire and, in so doing, tend to become elites. But many will not, because we play weirdos who don't really fit into the humdrum stability of ordinary life, even elite-rich ordinary life. Those who do not retire will often desire to go to ever-farther destinations, ever-harsher environments, ever-grander threats--because the thrill of the adventure (and, for some, the good their efforts can do) will be almost as valuable as the coin they get from it.
 
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Two thoughts --

This first may be a quibble, but the fictional world is not diegetic -- it is the diegesis. Things strictly within the fictional world are (of course) diegetic.

For the second, I don't think correspondence or representation is sufficient for a mechanic to be diegetic. What we describe a character as doing in the fiction is different than the process we use to determine what the character is doing in the fiction. The results, as we describe them, are clearly diegetic -- the characters and the players (audience) experience them in the same way -- but I really don't think the processes are.
Precisely.

The effect is necessarily diegetic because it literally does happen in the world.

The question is whether our process to find out the effect is diegetic or not.

I don't think anyone here argues that the people in the world are really rolling a die and adding numbers to it to find out whether they pick a lock. That part is pretty obviously the opposite of diegetic.

The question is whether there is enough diegetic...stuff...in the other aspects of that process, and I am inclined to say "no, not really". All the roll does is tell you whether you succeeded or failed at some particular task. It is 100% purely the function of human brains to take "success" and turn it into some visible, in-world meaning--and two differend GMs are likely (I'd say almost guaranteed) to produce very different explanations and reasons.

A diegetic mechanic, one should think, would be more closely related to the actual processes a character is undertaking--such that it would be obvious that you had to have succeeded (or failed) in just one, singular, specific way, every time the mechanic is used. It might be a different singular specific way for situation A where x matters, vs situation B where y matters. If situation C comes along and x is what matters again, the explanation would be identical to what it was in A.

Since that's objectively not true of D&D (literally the same roll in the same situation gets explained in different ways by different GMs, AND two genuinely distinct situations may get the same explanation), it's hard to see how D&D's mechanics could be diegetic in this context. They are, inherently, JUST a pass/fail. "Stats & Spreadsheets". It's 100% purely on the GM and players to provide every gram of "fluff" that explains what the roll result actually looks like in the world, the rules literally tell you absolute bupkiss.
 

The question is whether there is enough diegetic...stuff...in the other aspects of that process, and I am inclined to say "no, not really". All the roll does is tell you whether you succeeded or failed at some particular task. It is 100% purely the function of human brains to take "success" and turn it into some visible, in-world meaning--and two differend GMs are likely (I'd say almost guaranteed) to produce very different explanations and reasons.
We don't turn success or failure into some visible in fiction meaning. The meaning is established first and is attached to the roll before the roll happens.

The DM doesn't say DC 20 and then the players come up with some task to try at that DC.
Since that's objectively not true of D&D (literally the same roll in the same situation gets explained in different ways by different GMs, AND two genuinely distinct situations may get the same explanation), it's hard to see how D&D's mechanics could be diegetic in this context. They are, inherently, JUST a pass/fail. "Stats & Spreadsheets". It's 100% purely on the GM and players to provide every gram of "fluff" that explains what the roll result actually looks like in the world, the rules literally tell you absolute bupkiss.
Every different way is established prior to the roll. It's doesn't matter if DMs attach different meaning to the roll prior to it being rolled. At the time of the roll the meaning is already there and the roll represents the in fiction event.
 

I know. I am saying that your claim, "X is independent of Y", does not follow when X causes Y.
My claim was about chances.

When a spear is in flight, heading towards a target, that target's chance to dodge the spear does not depend upon the skill of the spear thrower. The spear thrower's impact on the situation ended once the spear entered flight heading in a certain direction.
 

I do not agree with any definition of simulation by which this mechanic qualifies.
And I am in the same position with respect to hp attrition combat and stop-motion turn-taking action economy. If we are talking about simulationist mechanics, those mechanics are radically non-simulationist. The former is just a clock, not a model of anything. And the latter violates temporality and causation.
 

My claim was about chances.

When a spear is in flight, heading towards a target, that target's chance to dodge the spear does not depend upon the skill of the spear thrower. The spear thrower's impact on the situation ended once the spear entered flight heading in a certain direction.
It seems like it would depend highly on the skill of the thrower; or rather, the quality of the throw. It is easier to dodge a poor throw than a good one. There is a clear connection, again, between the two.

Whereas the meaning of the runes cannot be said to be connected to the skill of the reader. (Although the reader's interpretation may be).
 

I don't see how this is hard.
A character looks at the ceiling and asks "Are there any cobwebs?"

The GM needs to provide an answer. Unless the GM's notes indicate cobwebs, the GM has to answer "no" - because principle 3 forbids the GM from adding to the imagined world non-diegetically.

The same would be true for the farrier, discussed upthread.

If the GM is forbidden, during play, from adding to the fiction non-diegetically, then the setting becomes extremely thin. Probably implausibly so in many cases. That is part of what makes the principles demanding.

Likewise the GM can't introduce an encounter because it "seems right" or even "makes sense". The GM's change in the fiction must be for a diegetic reason - map-and-key handling of encounter generation is the obvious example. It's not clear to me how standard random encounter tables would fit within the principles.

And principle 4 is also demanding. Eg suppose the player has their PC, who is fast and strong, open a door. The GM consults their notes, and sees there is a goblin behind the door. The GM narrates the goblin, and a door behind it on the other side of the room. The player says "I stop it before it can escape!" - and so the GM calls for an initiative roll. The goblin wins, and the GM narrates the goblin running across the room and through the other door - that is, they take their full 6-second turn while the PC just stands around doing nothing. Why can't the PC, who is bigger, faster and stronger than the goblin, try and run and/or jump and grab it? Principle 4 rules out as an answer "It's not your turn yet". But what is the in-fiction reason, that flows from the established circumstances and causality?

But changes to the fiction of the world? From the player side it's because the characters make it happen. From the GM side they're either reacting to what actions the characters did or what they said. There are many other things that the GM also narrates because it's a living world with other events, NPCs and creatures also coming into play.
Some of those things that you describe the GM doing don't seem to conform to principle 3.
 


It seems like it would depend highly on the skill of the thrower; or rather, the quality of the throw. It is easier to dodge a poor throw than a good one. There is a clear connection, again, between the two.
Once the spear has been thrown, and is on target, the fact that it was easy or hard to throw it on target is irrelevant. The spear is heading towards its intended victim. Their ability to dodge it is independent of how difficult that initial throw was.
 

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