D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

The mechanics represent the act that is occurring in the fiction. The character is climbing. The climbing mechanics support that fictional climb, so can be called diegetic mechanics. The mechanic is tied to the skill of the climber in the fiction.

The actual roll of the die by the player would not be diegetic, but the mechanic of roll a d20+str+prof would be since it's intertwined with the fictional event.
The mechanic is not a part of the fiction, and so by definition cannot be diegetic.

More generally, if X represents Y, and Y is part of the fiction, it doesn't follow that X is part of the fiction.

And not all parts of a mechanic in a RPG are representational. What does the d20 roll represent, for instance? Nothing that I can see.
 

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So in this perspective: What did you want to simulate when the runes were resolved?
What was being simulated was exploration of a weird dungeon, looking for answers to omens and portents.

Imagine ripping this incident completely out of context, and say that your first session of play stared with you asking "what do you want to do with the runes?" The player now utterly confused utters "read them I guess? Is this some sort of map?" You procede to roll some dice and declare "Yes it is indeed a map". Would that player when asked indicate they had an immersive experience, and that they got a sound dose of noetic satisfaction? I would expect a heavy no on both, and very empathichaly on the second, as this session in no way started as they would have expected.
I don't see how talking about some different, hypothetical event bears upon the actual game play that I described.

I have been repeatedly told, in this thread, that - because of the resolution process - it cannot have been a moment of, or a contributor to, simulationist play. I am asking "why not?" Your description of something completely different doesn't answer my question.
 

Two thoughts --

This first may be a quibble, but the fictional world is not diegetic -- it is the diegesis. Things strictly within the fictional world are (of course) diegetic.

For the second, I don't think correspondence or representation is sufficient for a mechanic to be diegetic. What we describe a character as doing in the fiction is different than the process we use to determine what the character is doing in the fiction. The results, as we describe them, are clearly diegetic -- the characters and the players (audience) experience them in the same way -- but I really don't think the processes are.

The term comes from film, right? Specifically about sound that is heard by both the characters and the audience, rather than just the audience (like a score, or narration, etc.).

It was adopted as an RPG term, by Cavegirl on her blog. The term doesn’t perfectly fit RPGs, and some of the other examples offered in the blog aren’t the best, but Cavegirl does a decent job of explaining her use.

But here’s the thing… as originally used, it is describing something being part of the world portrayed in the film, that normally would not be part of that world. It is the exception. Most film scores and/or soundtracks are not diegetic. They’re separate of, if complimentary to, the story being told. Having music that is actually diegetic is the exception rather than the rule.

As such, it’s not really meant to be used as a term for everything that’s happening in the fiction of the film… the actions of the characters and the events of the film, the story… they aren’t diegetic in the same way as music would be. There’s no need to point out that they are part of the film… they are evidently so.

What needs a term is something that normally would not be part of the story, but in this case is. That’s a soundtrack or score. The torture scene in Reservoir Dogs is a famous example. The song being part of what’s happening in the scene is an important element for that scene. It’s diegetic for that reason.

But there’d never be a reason to say that Mr. Blonde’s horrific actions in the scene are diegetic… I mean, there’s no doubt of that. Pointing it out seems unnecessary, at best.

The term, as it applies to RPGs, isn’t perfect. Cavegirl’s use is simple and pretty clear, but also doesn’t cover everything.
 

That's why I say that there are diegetic mechanics. The climb mechanics of D&D are the representation of the climb occurring in the fiction. It's the path player used to experience the climb being done by his character. The mechanics and the fictional climb are essentially one and the same.

Yep. This is the map of meaning I keep bringing up. We give fictional meaning to non-fictional things - specifically in a simulative and not authorial way.
 

The mechanic is not a part of the fiction, and so by definition cannot be diegetic.

More generally, if X represents Y, and Y is part of the fiction, it doesn't follow that X is part of the fiction.

And not all parts of a mechanic in a RPG are representational. What does the d20 roll represent, for instance? Nothing that I can see.

That’s not precisely true, when we give fictional meanings to real world events and artifacts in non-authorial ways then those granted meanings would be diegetic.
 

Once the spear has been thrown, and is on target, the fact that it was easy or hard to throw it on target is irrelevant. The spear is heading towards its intended victim. Their ability to dodge it is independent of how difficult that initial throw was.
Just on target? How accurate is it? Where is it going to hit? What is the speed? These depend on the skill of the user.

If this merging of independent probabilities is so widespread, perhaps there is a more compelling example. Because this is not at all like the runes case.
 


The term comes from film, right? Specifically about sound that is heard by both the characters and the audience, rather than just the audience (like a score, or narration, etc.).
According to Wikipedia,

Diegesis (Greek διήγησις "narration") and mimesis (Greek μίμησις "imitation") have been contrasted since Aristotle. For Aristotle, mimesis shows rather than tells, by means of action that is enacted. Diegesis is the telling of a story by a narrator.​

But I think you're correct that its use, in the RPG context, is based on the idea of sound in cinema. Though the Wikipedia page gives other contexts of use that are helpful for thinking about RPGs:

In filmmaking the term is used to refer to the story as it is directly depicted onscreen, as opposed to the (typically much longer) real time events which said story purports to tell. (It is the difference between seeing an intertitle reading "a week later," and simply waiting a week.)​

This gives us the contrast between (i) a cut from character goes to bed to character wakes up and (ii) Warhol's Sleep. Edwards coined the term "metagame time" to get at the same distinction in RPGing:

Metagame time is rarely discussed openly, but it's the crucial one. It refers to time-lapse among really-played scenes: can someone get to the castle before someone else kills the king; can someone fly across Detroit before someone else detonates the Mind Bomb. Metagame time isn't "played," but its management is a central issue for scene-framing and the outcome of the session as a whole.​

A challenge that I experienced in GMing Rolemaster was managing "metagame time" in a manner consistent with the simulationist inclinations of the system. As Edwards explains (in the same essay),

the Simulationist view of in-game time . . is a causal constraint on the other sorts. One can even find, in many early game texts, rules that enforce how in-game time acts on real time, and vice versa. However, most importantly, it constrains metagame time. It works in-to-out. In-game time at the fine-grained level (rounds, seconds, actions, movement rates) sets incontrovertible, foundation material for making judgments about hours, days, cross-town movement, and who gets where in what order.​

But at a certain degree of scaling up, the constraint can break down - eg exactly how long does someone spend asleep, or eating their lunch? And then the GM has to make a call about the metagame time. And this then risks departing from Sorensen's principle 3, with the GM making decisions about fictional events that are not simply "diegetic" extrapolations but rather imposing a vision. In practice, randomisation (eg "You have a 50% chance to get there before the Mind Bomb goes off") is often used: but this violates Sorensen's principle 4.

I like how Burning Wheel handles this in the moment of play: make an appropriate Speed test (whether opposed, or vs a fitting obstacle) to get there first. It is non-arbitrary, and allows the player to invest resources into the test (I think you talked about the importance of this a way upthread). But a consequence of the BW approach is that in-game time is no longer a meaningful constraint on metagame time: the chance of getting there first is highly sensitive to how the GM choose to frame the relevant scene. This doesn't matter for Burning Wheel, because in BW there are other (non-process-simulationist) constraints and guidelines on how scenes are framed which reflect the concerns/goals of the game - it is not about "winning" by "making it to the finish line".

But the BW approach won't work for RM, or anyone else trying to uphold the Sorensen principles.

Anyway, back to your post after that detour:

It was adopted as an RPG term, by Cavegirl on her blog. The term doesn’t perfectly fit RPGs, and some of the other examples offered in the blog aren’t the best, but Cavegirl does a decent job of explaining her use.

But here’s the thing… as originally used, it is describing something being part of the world portrayed in the film, that normally would not be part of that world. It is the exception. Most film scores and/or soundtracks are not diegetic. They’re separate of, if complimentary to, the story being told. Having music that is actually diegetic is the exception rather than the rule.

As such, it’s not really meant to be used as a term for everything that’s happening in the fiction of the film… the actions of the characters and the events of the film, the story… they aren’t diegetic in the same way as music would be. There’s no need to point out that they are part of the film… they are evidently so.

What needs a term is something that normally would not be part of the story, but in this case is. That’s a soundtrack or score. The torture scene in Reservoir Dogs is a famous example. The song being part of what’s happening in the scene is an important element for that scene. It’s diegetic for that reason.

But there’d never be a reason to say that Mr. Blonde’s horrific actions in the scene are diegetic… I mean, there’s no doubt of that. Pointing it out seems unnecessary, at best.
This is a point well made!

Which is why I like @Hussar's example of the prop map, or showing the players the puzzle square that their PCs are trying to solve. These are moments of "diegetic" resolution that are departures from the norm.
 

That’s not precisely true, when we give fictional meanings to real world events and artifacts in non-authorial ways then those granted meanings would be diegetic.
I'm not sure what you mean by "giving meaning in a non-authorial ways". I'm also not sure what you mean by "fictional meanings".

Is this an example? (I borrow it from Hilary Putnam): walking along the beach, I see the name "Ted" scrawled in the sand. I assume that someone called Ted, or someone in the company of someone called Ted, wrote the name. But actually, it is the result of a crab walking on the sand and (by coincidence) leaving markings that look like writing.
 

Thought experiment time. Suppose an actual author creates a simulation and then writes a novel based on the simulation results.

Hes not doing the same thing as a typical author of fiction, ie he’s not just making up a good story, in some sense he’s behaving more similarly to a non-fiction writer of history.

That is, writing about fiction derived wholly from a simulation is more related to writing non-fiction than fiction.

Now it’s true that this hypothetical author created the simulation that he based the fiction on, but creating a simulation is a much different activity than authoring.

This concept translates similarly for RPGs. Generating fiction by running a simulation is not the same thing as making up fiction absent that simulation.
 

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