D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

No projector, no film is equivalent to no books, no game. It's not what I am talking about. The climb mechanics are bound within the act of climbing in the fiction.
No. They are not.

Because if the climb mechanics are bound within the act of climbing, then the climb mechanics would provide some information about how the result was achieved. They don't. All they do is tell you the result and force the DM to then backfill the details without any guidance from the mechanics themselves.

That's the point you keep missing.
 

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Schroedinger's treasure!

Sorensen addresses this, in part at least, in principle 3:

If the GM is also author, designer, and creator of the fictional world, they must adhere to the fictional world created before play begins. Once at the table, the world cannot be changed except by purely diegetic means.​

To me, this is ambiguous as to what the GM is allowed to do during breaks in play. And the more permissive a group is about that - the GM can author the world between sessions, or during a coffee break, or during a five-minute time out called after a card is drawn from a DoMT - then the less meaningful the constraint becomes.

How I approach this, which seems to be common, is that I setup the local situation pertinent for the characters, and then do not significantly alter it once the play begins. But things further away can be more quantum, and I define them more solidly if and when they would be to soon become relevant. This might not be "pure" approach according to the manifesto, but it allows fulfilling it locally whilst not requiring preplanning everything in the whole world before the campaign begins, which obviously would be somewhat impractical.
 


Because if the climb mechanics are bound within the act of climbing, then the climb mechanics would provide some information about how the result was achieved. They don't.

Yes they do. They work by drawing the odds of success by comparing the skill of the climber to the difficulty of the climb, thus we know those are the factors that result "the how.". Then they tell us whether the climbs was successful or not, and to what degree it failed or succeeded. That trivially fulfils the "any information" requirement.
 

Eh. Whether you apply difficulty directly or by modifying a roll is basically irrelevant; the probabilities are and whether the adjustment of same seems to fit the setting/situation.
But, you don't modify the difficulty or the roll in GURPS. Not typically. There might be extreme examples where you do it, but, the vast majority of time, the roll is made vs skill only. It is very rare that any adjustment is made to the roll.
 

It is, but one which makes the simulation substantially weaker.* All locks are not of same complexity.


And including that makes the simulation stronger.

* Which of course is a trade-off all mechanics must make to certain degree.
No. It simply makes the simulation more plausible for you. Me too actually. But, it doesn't make it more simulationist since the trade off here is that by adding in all these extra elements, you force the DM to create a justification post hoc. Which makes the resulting information non-diegetic, and thus poor for simulationist games.

You might like it more, but, it's in no way a "better" or "worse" simulation.
 

It is not, but the systems you think are like that, are not like that, like it has been shown to you several times in this thread.
How so? In earlier D&D, if you failed a skill check, it's because you were not skilled enough to succeed. Full stop. That's why retries are not allowed. Same in GURPS. Your chances of success are based entirely on your skill.

Which means that success or failure is informed by the mechanics. How did you succeed? You were skilled enough to succeed and any narration that is provided must include that information. If you failed? It's because you did not have sufficient skill to succeed. And any narration must include that information.

Even something as simple as Bend Bars, Lift Gates satisfies this. You get one chance to do lift a gate or bend a bar (or other extreme feats of strength and if you fail, you may not try again.

Or learning a new spell. If you fail your check (which is not modified in any way by the level of the spell) then you may not attempt to learn this spell again until you gain a level.

All sorts of examples of mechanics providing diegetic information.
 

Yes they do. They work by drawing the odds of success by comparing the skill of the climber to the difficulty of the climb, thus we know those are the factors that result "the how.". Then they tell us whether the climbs was successful or not, and to what degree it failed or succeeded. That trivially fulfils the "any information" requirement.
Sigh.

You have a+4 climb check and a DC 15 climb. You roll a 10 and fail the climb. You do not fall, because you didn't fail by 5, but, you make no forward progress. What narratives are disallowed here?

If you roll a 5 or less, you fell. What is the narrative? How did you decide that particular narrative? In what way do the mechanics determine any part of how you ended up falling? Note, you are not allowed, as the DM, in this scenario, to make anything up. Any reason for falling MUST be grounded in the mechanics for the mechanics to provide any diegetic information. You can expand on that information, certainly, but, the core of the information MUST be solely generated by the mechanics.

Otherwise, make naughty word up is diegetic and means that anything you make up is simulationist.
 

It is, but one which makes the simulation substantially weaker.* All locks are not of same complexity.
While true, as I have previously argued, the actual issue with picking a lock is not whether you are capable of doing so. As long as someone is generally well-practiced with picking locks, and they actually do have the tools necessary to pick a specific lock (meaning, they're not being asked to pick a disc detainer lock when they only have standard pin-tumbler/wafer/dimple locks), the only relevant concern is how long it will take them to pick it. An experienced picker focused on speed over all other concerns can pick an unknown lock in minutes, perhaps seconds for very weak locks. An inexperienced picker, or one facing a type of lock they haven't seen before, might take quite a bit longer--but as long as those two criteria are met (have the tools, have the training), nearly all locks are 100% pickable by almost anyone, skill level just determines the amount of time it takes.

Given previous examples explicitly said that the person attempting the pick the lock did in fact have a real chance of picking it, even the alternative notion you're implying is substantially unlike the real world--whereas, in actual practice, what will affect a lockpicker trying to pick their way into a home....is going to be whether someone notices their attempted burglary.

Which, I'll note, was explicitly rejected as being un-simulation-y, even though it is, in fact, more like reality than the idea that a certain lock is simply beyond person A's skills to pick, despite having all relevant tools and training.

And including that makes the simulation stronger.
Well. Assuming that the inclusion actually does move closer to the goal of simulation.

As noted above, it is entirely possible for something to feel like a better simulation, despite actually being objectively less like reality. Hence my reference to participant knowledge mattering. If you don't know anything at all about lockpicking, it seems perfectly reasonable that two people of fairly equivalent experience and access to the necessary tools could end up discovering that one lacks some key insight that the other possesses, and thus one can pick the lock while the other can't. Having been exposed to the amateur lockpicking world and dug deeper into this...I know that that's simply, and objectively, false. Two people of similar experience will be able to pick more or less all the same locks--exceptions will be very, very rare, and usually involve locks specifically designed to break or seize when picked, which contravenes the described examples anyway.

I harp on this specifically because it so clearly illustrates the fundamental disconnect between the way (process) "simulation" is talked about, and the way it's actually done in practice. Folks, here and elsewhere, talk about it as though its target were to resemble objective, observable truths and verifiable logic as much as humanly possible. This is false. It would be lovely if it were true, but it isn't. What people actually want is the feeling that it resembles objective, observable truths and verifiable logic. The unkind way of phrasing that is "truthiness"; my preferred way is "groundedness".

Something can be objectively disconnected from how reality works--genuinely in defiance of known, albeit obscure, data--but still feel "realistic" or "verisimilitudinous" because it matches our intuitions and allows us to apply intuitive, naturalistic reasoning to such situations in a (in-the-fiction) consistent way. That's because it feels grounded, even if we later learn that it isn't actually how things work. Groundedness is influenced by IRL truth, but not determined by it. It's mostly a function of intuition and received wisdom.
 

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