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D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

You’re admitting both outcomes are plausible, so picking one doesn’t break world logic, it follows from it. That’s the contradiction: you say the logic holds, then claim it doesn’t the moment I make a choice.
No I’m saying that “plausible” is only from your perspective. And that the things you find plausible and the things you think will be fun at the table are more often than not the same.

Your choice has nothing to do with anything being actually plausible. The list of plausible in any given situation is very, very long. Your choice though will be guided by what you think is interesting to play out. IOW, plausible is pretty much synonymous with “plausible deniability “.
 

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It's not very satisfying, but -- until the prevailing circumstances in the fiction are different. I suppose death would always work, but that's wicked extreme.
When it's one PC out-Duelling another PC, the losing PC has to go along with whatever the winner convinced him about. I can easily see this being (ab)used as a form of CvC mind control by dominant-type players packing a bit of cleverness.
Let's say my little dude has a belief that Prince Johann is the rightful king and should've gotten the throne before his older brother Jürgen for technical legal reasons. He makes this argument in front of the parliament and pooches it. They won't hear anything of it. He can't convince them, and the consequences of the duel are that speech against the king is outlawed. Maybe a change in government brings more willing ears to power. Maybe the king gets in over his head in a war with Florin and Guilder. Maybe my little dude goes off and finds hardcore proof. These would all be fine ways for it to come up again : the situation is not the same.
All makes sense, though again this is PC vs a crowd of NPCs rather than PC vs PC.

Question, though: in the example you cite, does the entire parliament have to go along with the idea that you pooched it or can some individual MPs or a minority party still think you have a valid point and vote in your favour (and maybe get in trouble with the kig later for so doing)?
 

Again I ask, when a Duel of Wits forces a character to agree to something, how long does that agreement have to last before the character can disagree again?

If all Faolyn has to go by is the basic rules while you have more in-depth info, it's a bit much to get annoyed at her for making statements based on the in-theory-complete rules she has.
I dunno. Reapearedly challenging someone because you have an incomplete understanding of that thing is not really saying much other than one’s lack of knowledge.
 


But it doesn't stop the attempt. And I though all you "character agency" advocates were all about the attempt. That what follows from the attempt is neither here nor there.
OK, let me get this clear before I confuse myself further:

Step 1: the character declares she's going to commit murder, and maybe gives some details as to how, with what, etc.
Step 2: the GM calls for a Steel check, which the PC fails.
Step 3: the PC hesitates a moment before attacking and ultimately stands down - the actual (attempt to) murder never occurs.
Step 4: ???

"Let it ride" would seem to imply step 4 cannot be to follow through with the murder or even to attempt to do so as she's been shown to not have the Steel for it.

And step 3 - the way I interpret this to work, anyway - tells me the Steel check stops the process in its tracks before the attempt (i.e. the in-fiction physical use of a weapon to try to murder the victim) occurs. The dagger is raised but it never strikes; and it's the strike of the dagger that it the actual attempt to murder.
 

Imagine a land filled with warring nations, until some powerful figure unites them into a single empire with them as the Emperor.

Now imagine a group of PCs who, in the midst of doing PC things, kill the Emperor. And their spouse. And their heirs. And their goatee'd vizier, quite possibly only because he has a goatee. They also make a big announcement to the public, so the public knows what a good deed the PCs just did. (Look: PCs are not always that bright.) They adopt his dog, though--they're not monsters--and name it Snuffles Throat-Ripper. They may or may not try to actually take over the throne, but it's just as likely they just go on to the next adventure.
And only six weeks later do the PCs realize they didn't change a thing: Snuffles was the real Emperor all along (the others were all just his lackeys, even including Mr. V. Goatee) and boy are those PCs in trouble now!!! :)

In my game the PCs (against ridiculous odds, but dice will be dice) took out the undead Emperor of what had under his centuries-long reign become a very Evil realm.

Result: a 5-way civil war erupted within weeks (most of the leaders being slave lords from the A-series modules) as what seemed like everybody and their little dog tried to fill the power vacuum. Several in-game years later that war is still going on, though now down to only three sides as two got wiped out.
 

And only six weeks later do the PCs realize they didn't change a thing: Snuffles was the real Emperor all along (the others were all just his lackeys, even including Mr. V. Goatee) and boy are those PCs in trouble now!!! :)

In my game the PCs (against ridiculous odds, but dice will be dice) took out the undead Emperor of what had under his centuries-long reign become a very Evil realm.

Result: a 5-way civil war erupted within weeks (most of the leaders being slave lords from the A-series modules) as what seemed like everybody and their little dog tried to fill the power vacuum. Several in-game years later that war is still going on, though now down to only three sides as two got wiped out.
I absolutely love when the PCs actually have agency and can change the world. To me that's the beating heart of RPGs. Sounds like a lot of fun.
 

To my mind, there is nothing particularly special about the questions you're asking above with respect to Hardholder. In my recent Dark Sun game (which was more of a stealth sandbox than an overt one, to be fair, but was certainly a fairly trad game, being run with Mythras) I was very interested to see how the PCs would react to learning that all was not what it seems in the village of escaped slaves where they found refuge. Very specifically relevant to your examples, how they would handle water sources that they need but so do other perfectly decent people. How they would balance pragmatic needs with offering people basic human dignity. Seeing how characters deal with moral quandaries and conflicting priorities has always been part-and-parcel of my gaming, sandbox or not, and I am surprised to see anyone suggesting this is rare or unusual.
OK, my list of questions about the Hardholder was a pretty superficial description in the sense that it didn't delve into the rest of the process and how it all hangs together: The player chose to use the hardholder playbook, a playbook which specifically casts the character as at least an organizer, if not outright leader of a community or group, the inhabitants of the hardhold, a refuge in the chaos of Apocalypse World. The hardholder player will describe this place to at least some extent, and the rest will be discovered in play.

In your example of Dark Sun and a village, etc. you chose to create a village, and give it some circumstances which YOU were interested in. Do you see the difference right off here?

Now, it may well be that the GM, at some point, makes a move, or reveals a threat, or a clock tick brings a threat to enact some problem for the hardhold, lack of water in my example. This is putting pressure on the character because, presumably, they care about their community, or at least some parts of it. In your example, you also create a threat, but it isn't against anything that the players seem to have chosen to value. Instead presumably they will do something most likely because it is in their interests. D&D certainly doesn't foreground any kind of character motives or interests.

But notice the nature of my questions, they weren't just simple questions, they were also escalating, and focusing on the character. I was imagining this whole process. The PC is doing whatever, she's probably engaged in other conflicts, keeping the peace maybe, gathering supplies, whatever she does. Water is presented as an issue, in order to threaten the holding. First the player has to decide, will the character take the water needed by others? Maybe, maybe not. This is likely to bring some other conflicts too, the Angel may not be cool with taking the Sand People's water. Maybe it will turn the population against her! In any case, tough decisions will be made.

But AW is a game where things escalate. The world isn't OK. Maybe she decides to share the water and now some people are pissed and she's got to decide, will I bust heads? Will I resort to violence? Finally, the situation gets crazy, the character's sister somehow gets involved, will she kill her, or whatever the situation is? Play to find out.

It is a very different kind of structure of play. As I said in the first post, I have never seen trad play do this. I have seen some dramatic trad play, but it was always more focused on something the GM planned out, like your village, with a plot attached to it.
 

No, I’m considering player actions.

Look at the example @thefutilist offered not far back. The arcane assassins fail to kill the cruel king… but kill his daughter. How does the king react?

Let’s say the assassins are the PCs.

How does the king respond to the PCs’ actions?

This can be determined in any number of ways. But assuming the GM is going to decide based on what’s been established… most of the information is going to be things the GM has already decided.
Already decided about the setting, sure. Are divination effects available, and how easily? Can the cruel king get his daughter raised from the dead? Failing that, can Speak With Dead on her provide any info about her killers? What other resources can the king bring to bear? And, perhaps most important, is the king in a coherent enough state to get any of this rolling right away or will it have to wait until he comes to his senses?

If I'm the DM I in theory already know the answers to the first three questions (the first two are setting-based and the third will have been determined when we played out the assassination) and - unless I'd already statted this king right down to his toenails - would probably have to roll for the fourth. I'd definitely have to roll for the fifth.

Flip side: what do the PCs have going for them in terms of being able to get away and-or cover their tracks and-or disguise themselves and-or avoid magical detection or divination? The answers to these questions will go a long way toward determining whether any manner of king's response will matter very much.

Flip side to flip side: do the subsequent actions of the PCs help or hurt their ability to evade the king's response. Do they brag about their exploits in the local pub (I've seen many a PC unwise enough to do just this)? Did someone send them on this job and if so, does that someone rat them out? So many variables.
 

Why would a fantasy world not be created by deities? Why would plate tectonics, and atmospheric currents, even be a thing?
The world may well have been created by deities but it's had a long time since then to run on its own; and even if its rotational axis is vertical (i.e. no seasons) there's still going to be air currents and weather simply due to some parts of the surface being land and other parts ocean and the resulting uneven distribution of heat (if your world is all land or all ocean, that's a world that I really don't know how to model the weather and climate for, though I could probably get all-ocean pretty close).

If your world has volcanoes, that implies if not dictates it also has a molten core; and rotating around a star is going to cause that molten core to develop its own slow-motion currents*, leading directly to the landmasses above moving around on top of it: plate tectonics.

It's all just in-fiction causality. :)

* - having one or more large moons like Earth's or being part of a binary planet system will enhance this further due to their gravitational effects.
 

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