D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Mostly on stage, some backstage. High school drama club and community theater. My experience was very collaborative. Everyone taking notes from the director, giving each other notes, etc. A lot of problem solving when it comes to props, etc.
Mine was also high school theatre and a bit of out-of-school stuff; and unlike your groups ours tended to collaborate in silos - the actors helped out the other actors (well, as much as can be expected in high school where people didn't always get along) while the stage crew helped each other out and the costume-makeup people helped each other - and there was very little if any crossover. The connecting piece was the director.

The glaring exception was a troupe play we did as an offshoot of high-school drama where we took a small production around to the elementary schools in the area. With that one there was only six of us, no director* or other support except one of the six was designated "stage manager" and was responsible for our (very limited) sets getting where they had to go. We really had to lean on each other for everything, and somehow managed to make a go of it.

* - except for the very first rehearsal, the drama teacher led it and then told us we were on our own.
 

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Because that's the point of the game. It's a game of Arthurian adventure.

If you didn't want to do that sort of thing, you wouldn't play Prince Valiant.
Of all the ways a tabletop RPG campaign can be managed, why did you choose the following approach for running Arthurian adventures in Prince Valiant?

When I GMed Prince Valiant, I made decisions as a GM about who the PCs encounter, intended to frame them into interesting situations that would require the players to make choices about how their knight errants respond.

For comparison, in my Living World sandbox campaigns, my goal is to leave players feeling like they’ve visited the setting as their characters, experiencing a world in motion and having varied, emergent adventures. That’s the overarching creative goal I aim for when managing a campaign, regardless of setting or genre.

So I’m curious: beyond choosing a genre like Arthurian romance in the world of Prince Valiant, what is your overarching creative goal when managing a campaign? What experience are you aiming to give or work out with the players through this approach? Especially given all the other ways one could approach managing a tabletop roleplaying campaign.

And this is just wrong.

The contrasting examples I used about a trip to Greece reflects a deep difference in certain playstyle priorities. Even if that specific point isn’t relevant to your approach, answering the question about the Prince Valiant campaign would help me, and others reading, better understand how your priorities shape the way you manage campaigns.
 

You’re wrong; the failure to meet Tolub is a missed encounter. If Tolub was planning on doing something, then the PCs missed the opportunity to join in or stop him. If the PCs sneak in through the back, they miss having an encounter with Megloss and/or Krystal.
I find the description of "missed encounter" extremely counterintuitive.

I mean, it's not a phrase I've ever used to describe my life, so why would I use it to describe the imaginary lives of imaginary people?

That is exactly what encounters are. The only difference is that in a game, there will be more to do at a location than sightsee and take photos. Missions and deals and combat and the like. And due to the various constraints of the game, it’s less likely that party will be able to go back to those areas—and even if they do, the things they could have encountered may no longer be there. NPCs have moved on. Events may have been triggered already. The PCs could have burned the city down.
To me, you seem to be making assumptions about how RPGing works that aren't universal. I can't work out exactly what you've got in mind, though I think I've got a bit of an idea. The vibe I'm getting is something like a 1990s TSR module, and the associated expectations about how play works.
 

Not far upthread you directly equated tests with "checks" in D&D; and in D&D avoiding having to make checks you don't need to is almost universally the best strategy.

Here, it seems you're saying the game actively wants players to run their PCs into these "test" situations even if it's directly contrary to what a wise character would do. As "do what the character would do" is my primary mode of play, no wonder this all seems senseless to me.
Tests are things that happen in the real world, not in the imaginary world.

In the fiction, the PC - for example - tries to scale a wall, or tries to persuade a shopkeeper to sell them something for a low price. At the table, dice are rolled to see what happens.
 

So here's what I actually posted:
Do you disagree with that?
Yes, I agree they are not the same thing. This goes some way to explaining why I said that I view them similarly, rather than saying something like, "they are the same thing".

None of which addresses the point I was making, which was that when I expressed that I see a similarity, you felt a need to leap in and and reject this. In fact, continuing to focus only on the differences, as if that's all that can possibly matter, is exactly what I was saying is the issue.
 

Because the bulk of it simply seemed to be in agreement with what I'd said all along: you do what you do because you feel like doing it, and you avoid what you avoid because you feel like avoiding it. In other words, there are no actual limits. If ever you felt like railroading in a game would add something to it, you'd do it, no? The only limit is "I don't feel like crossing that line right now."


Mostly? I'll be honest: I didn't fully read the final part of the post, because I'd gotten 3/4 through it and found nothing meriting a response. That is harsh, I admit, but...it's how I felt. I skimmed over the last bit which, unfortunately, really was the meat and potatoes and is what I should have read. So I apologize for not fully reading everything you wrote. That was a bad choice. If I may correct that error now:


That has certainly been one component of it, yes. And thus, in the spirit of the above apology, I accept yours as well, even if it was only implied.

But there is a bigger component, which is not mentioned among the things you've said here. That component is that you--and others--have not only insisted that this is a way to do sandbox-y play. Rather, that it is the best way to do so, and that other systems not only are not as good, they actually interfere with or prevent sandbox-y play. Back when the discussion was about prep stuff, regarding comments from Hussar, that very much was what several people directly and explicitly claimed. Not just that collaborative creation, or GM-less games, or games with rules that apply to the GM as well as to players, are a different kind of sandbox-y play (which would be objectively correct, they are!); not just that there are differences (again, objectively correct); but that this is the highest form of sandbox-y play.

The things you keep calling "bickering" or trivialities etc. aren't trivialities to me. They're extremely important. So when someone tells me there are restrictions on the GM's freedom, restrictions beyond what the GM feels like doing, I want to know what those are. Those are of nearly indescribable importance, because they shape nearly everything about the play-experience. They set boundaries. They mark what cannot be touched--e.g. the bit a fair ways upthread where some folks almost seemed taken aback to consider that "The GM must respect what the player rolls" is a binding GM restriction. When someone says they are guided by "principles", I want to know what those principles are, because that's how they and I get on the same page. When someone says they have "guidelines", I need to know what those guidelines are so I can know where I'm being guided to. Etc.

Hence I've pressed--for clarity, for specificity, against vagueness, against passing-the-buck. And it seems that now, at last...we've ended up where I started from the beginning. As argued above, the restriction is, "Because the DM feels like it would make a better experience." Nothing more, nothing less. And I don't take that very seriously as a "restriction".


What would satisfy me would be either...

(A) When one says one has "principles" or "guidelines" etc., talking about what they are, rather than just using a single high-abstraction word. Even if you can't bring to mind any specific words, talk about what you do! Give me an actual-play example with or without the details filed off (I respect your players' privacy) that walks through your reasoning and where important principles applied, or invent one. (Both things I have personally done in this thread.)

...or...

(B) Recognize that the "principle" is literally just gut feeling. If that's actually all it is, just say that, rather than throwing up words like "realism" and "consistency" and "plausibility" etc. as though it truly did have a structured, philosophical underpinning that is somehow ineffable. It's perfectly fine to just say "I do what feels right", if that is in fact what you do. That recognizes that there really isn't any particular pattern or rubric or principle or guideline etc., it's just following gut instinct where it leads. Nothing wrong with using intuition in a leisure-time exercise....if we recognize it as intuition, and not as a procedure or principle that can be discussed. (Not something I personally have done in this thread, since...that's not what I do. But if it were, I'd say so; e.g. if the conversation were about how I balance custom moves in DW, I really do kinda just do that by intuition, on the basis of the loose statistical spread of results I've seen in play, and then tweak it later if it falls short in one way or another.)
Edit: Sorry, ignore my initial response, I misread you.
 
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I don’t know from L5R at all, so my question is, does the newest edition or editions try to continue the game presented in the original? Ignore the base mechanics (d10s vs d20) and focus on the parts that make it “feel” like L5R to you. Do they line up?

My first Star Trek game was FASA. I never actually got to play it, but I read it. Currently, I own Star Trek Adventures (1e). The two games to me feel very different, with very different goals and ways to play even beyond the mechanics. I wouldn’t consider them to be the same game, even though it’s the same setting.
Well, the current system is overtly Narrativist, which makes it less fun for me, and they rebooted the setting with modifications, so basically I'm fine with ending it at fourth edition. Up until that point, all editions using the d10 system felt more or less right for L5R, and the pure d20 stuff was scarce and still had good lore, so I didn't mind it much.
 

Mine was also high school theatre and a bit of out-of-school stuff; and unlike your groups ours tended to collaborate in silos - the actors helped out the other actors (well, as much as can be expected in high school where people didn't always get along) while the stage crew helped each other out and the costume-makeup people helped each other - and there was very little if any crossover. The connecting piece was the director.

The glaring exception was a troupe play we did as an offshoot of high-school drama where we took a small production around to the elementary schools in the area. With that one there was only six of us, no director* or other support except one of the six was designated "stage manager" and was responsible for our (very limited) sets getting where they had to go. We really had to lean on each other for everything, and somehow managed to make a go of it.

* - except for the very first rehearsal, the drama teacher led it and then told us we were on our own.
I was an on-stage actor from 6th grade through 12th, albeit mostly in comedic supporting rolls. No real back stage work.
 

@EzekielRaiden, if you want to see what I do, here's the best example I have:

 

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