D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

But the imaginary people don't describe their lives as if they were pieces on a gameboard!
So?

As I've posted repeatedly, in the fiction perhaps the PCs avoid an ambush, or whatever.

I'm asking at the table what does it mean to talk about "missing/bypassing an encounter*? Where did "the encounter" live? Why were the PCs on some trajectory towards the encounter, such that it makes sense to say that they went on to "miss" or "bypass" it?
I have given you multiple examples already. Players realizing there’s something strange in the woods and choosing not to investigate; the encounter lived in the woods. Players fighting NPCs instead of befriending them; the encounters were bypassed through violence. Players obtaining an item through legal means rather than performing a heist; the players saw the illegal option and decided against it.

Where are these encounters?
Everywhere.

You talked about a PC needing to get blood. He ran into the room, hoping to get blood from a wounded person. Instead, he found an assassin and a corpse. That’s an encounter.

If the PC had decided to get blood from another source and didn’t go to the wounded guy’s room, would the assassin still have killed the wounded guy? If yes, that was a bypassed encounter.

No. They have had their PCs go west. There is no "encounter" that was avoided. Describing it that way would, in my view, suggest a significant misunderstanding of how BW works (both in respect of prep, and of scene-framing).
If you, the GM, knew there would be orcs to the east, then yes, those would be bypassed encounters.

Not far upthread I mentioned starting my BW game with the PCs in a bazaar, When one of the players declared that his PC left the bazaar, I resolved that action. It wasn't hard: the players described their PCs going to an inn favoured by sorcerers, hoping to be offered some work; the Circles test was rolled; it failed; and so I narrated a wizard's henchman turning up with a message from the sorcerer Jabal: Leave town, now. You're marked. Given that the sorcerer PC had just acquired a cursed angel feather at the bazaar, this was taken to be an indication of the curse at work.
OK? This doesn’t have anything to do with what we’re talking about.

Further upthread I talked about turning up to a RPG session and suggesting that we play a session of AD&D using White Plume Mountain. Everyone agreed, and rolled up some PCs. I read out the backstory, and we started at the dungeon entrance. If one of the players, at that point, were to declare "I go back to Greyhawk!" then as I already posted that would be a weird and dysfunctional thing - it would suggest that one or both of us had completely misunderstood the earlier conversation where we agreed to play White Plume Mountain.

As I already posted, in our earlier iteration of this conversation, agreeing on what game to play is not itself a move in a game.
So? That doesn’t mean they realized what you meant. Maybe you did a bad job of explaining yourself. Maybe they did a bad job of understanding you. Maybe they decided they wanted to do something else.
 

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There’s a difference between “if you players don’t go there, there’s no game” and “ok, give me some time to come up with a new adventure.”

Also, GMs can improvise, even in prep-heavy games.

Hmm, well given the same conditions as @pemerton gave, I'd stop the game and have a chat and clarify why they didn't want to go into the dungeon.

If they said their characters just decided to do something else. I'd have a wizard create an illusion where no matter which way they went, there was the dungeon entrance.

This is because I'd assume we're messing with each other and parodying what we see as dysfunctional roleplay behaviour.
 


There are encounters. Sometimes, for any number of reasons, players deliberately avoid them. Those are bypassed encounters. If you, when running BW or TB, say there are signs of orcs in the east and the players say “I don’t wanna fight them, let’s go west,” they have bypassed an encounter.
To be perhaps overly fussy, I'd call it a bypassed encounter situation if they successfully found a way to go east without meeting or fighting any Orcs.
 

Crowdfunding was a thing years before 5e came out. Kickstarter itself launched back in 2009. Sure, it's facilitating a host of indie (and not so indie) projects that probably wouldn't exist without it, but the audience for them is only as large as it is thanks to 5e. Bit of a wombo combo.

I believe Apocalypse World’s printing was funded via KS, back in the early 2010s? I know online sales is how the Bakers have gone from having day jobs to full time game designers.
 

But the imaginary people don't describe their lives as if they were pieces on a gameboard!

As I've posted repeatedly, in the fiction perhaps the PCs avoid an ambush, or whatever.

I'm asking at the table what does it mean to talk about "missing/bypassing an encounter*? Where did "the encounter" live? Why were the PCs on some trajectory towards the encounter, such that it makes sense to say that they went on to "miss" or "bypass" it?
rant

Who gives a flippety-flop about the specifics of the conversation at the table? You keep dragging things back to this dry analysis over and over again, and for the (my guess is vast) majority of us it just doesn't matter.

The only thing that matters is what happens in the fiction: by sneaking in the back of the castle the characters bypassed a potential encounter on the drawbridge. Good job them, they reduced the risk to themselves and can carry on to whatever they're doing next. And you say you can't understand this?

The fiction is why we play the damn game!

/rant
 

Hmm, well given the same conditions as @pemerton gave, I'd stop the game and have a chat and clarify why they didn't want to go into the dungeon.
Why? If they want to go somewhere else then IMO it's on you-as-DM to run that, even if you have to cover with random encounters until you can more fully prep something for next week.
If they said their characters just decided to do something else. I'd have a wizard create an illusion where no matter which way they went, there was the dungeon entrance.

This is because I'd assume we're messing with each other and parodying what we see as dysfunctional roleplay behaviour.
Even if it's as simple as you've started them at the dungeon entrance expecting them to go right in but they decide instead to check the surrounding area for other entrances?
 

Because that's the GM's job in the game?

Here is some text from p 5 of the rulebook:

Here is what you posted about a trip to Greece:
And here are some reasons why I said that this is just wrong:

*The players in my Prince Valiant game are "living in King Arthur's world as their characters" just as much as the players in your game are "living" in your world as their characters. The PCs in my Prince Valiant game include a widowed father and his son. One who started play as a squire was knighted by Sir Lionheart, one of the greatest knights in Britain. All three PCs have married, each to a noblewoman, but in different circumstances. They have lived their religious convictions, and founded a religious military order. They have negotiated with nobles and royalty, and with rebellious peasantry. They have led their warband to victory, and also to defeat. All this has happened in 15 sessions of play.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I see how Prince Valiant lays things out, and I appreciate you taking the time to walk through them.

That said, I was asking less about what the rulebook says and more about why you chose to run it that way. Plenty of RPGs encourage referees to structure things a certain way, but many of us adapt or reinterpret those expectations depending on what we’re trying to get out of the game.

So what I’m trying to understand is, out of all the ways a campaign can be managed, why did you personally choose this structure? Was it just for this game, or is this a general preference you bring to most of your campaigns? What makes it the approach you favor?

That’s the part I’m interested in, because it speaks to your priorities when running a game, not just what the rules permit, but what you’re aiming for creatively.


The last part of your post talks about how your players are living the life of Arthurian knights. I realize now that there was a misunderstanding earlier. I wasn’t questioning whether your style of play allows for that kind of character experience. What I was specifically responding to was this statement:

When I GMed Prince Valiant, I made decisions as a GM about who the PCs encounter, intended to frame them into interesting situations that would require the players to make choices about how their knight errants respond.

That’s what I was focused on, the fact that, at least when it comes to encounters, you choose and frame situations in a way that challenges how the characters respond. I’m curious why you prefer that approach, beyond the rulebook prescribing it. What draws you to it?

I accept that in many styles of play, players live the lives of their characters, but it’s done in different ways. In your case, it seems you place a high value on framing situations that challenge your players' character beliefs and motivations. And I think that’s worth digging into, because it helps clarify why we manage our campaigns the way we do, not just how.

For example, my focus on running living world campaigns began back in junior high, around age 12 to 14, when I was running games for my friends. I came into tabletop roleplaying from wargaming, and early on, we used D&D as a way to run campaigns where the players could carve out realms while I ran the rest of the world, rival powers, neutrals they could win over, and so on.

I found I loved setting the stage and seeing what the players would do. I had a strong sense of fairness from sports and gaming, and I learned through trial and error how to set things up so that play wasn’t just fair, but interesting and fun. I also stumbled onto something important: reusing the same setting from campaign to campaign, and keeping track of what had happened before, made the game even more compelling. My players loved that the world remembered their past actions, and they wanted to come back and see what changed. Eventually, their former PCs became major NPCs in the setting.

Over time, we shifted from conquest and realm-building to more open-ended adventure, but the same approach worked, letting the world move on its own and seeing how the players engage with it. That experience became the foundation of how I run games today.

So I’m genuinely interested in your own foundation. What led you to gravitate toward games like Prince Valiant or Burning Wheel? You’ve written many detailed essays on tabletop RPGs, but what is the underlying reason you run games the way you do? What makes one system or setting more appealing than another to you? Why Prince Valiant? Why Burning Wheel?
 

rant

Who gives a flippety-flop about the specifics of the conversation at the table? You keep dragging things back to this dry analysis over and over again, and for the (my guess is vast) majority of us it just doesn't matter.

The only thing that matters is what happens in the fiction: by sneaking in the back of the castle the characters bypassed a potential encounter on the drawbridge. Good job them, they reduced the risk to themselves and can carry on to whatever they're doing next. And you say you can't understand this?

The fiction is why we play the damn game!

/rant
The fiction might be why we play the game. I can imagine other reasons, too: fun, expressing system mastery, socialization, and so on. For instance, I didn't play a 0-level DCC funnel this weekend for the fiction. There was fiction there, and it was fine (I guess), but it wasn't my end goal when I sat down.

But, for me, talking about the specifics of the conversation at the table -- why does this thing lead to a desired result reliably or a better example of that desired result but this other thing leads to hot buttered garbage or tears and recriminations? -- is one of the only ways that I can see improving any of it. Without talking about inputs, I'm not confident at all that we can consistently get better output.
 

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