D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Not exactly, no. Meaningful choices are needed, yes, but it's not about accurate choices. It's about accurate information. You cannot make a meaningful choice when you're not accurately informed.

Now, there are different ways that players may wind up not being informed. If it's through some failing on their part, then that's one thing. If information that could be available to them is simply withheld by the GM, then that's a GM denying them information. That's undermining agency.

In other words, if the players fail in some way, it should be because of a mistake they made, or because the dice didn't go their way... it shouldn't be because the GM decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't have all the information to make a decision.
So if the players blow a player-side roll they meta-know their information might be incomplete or inaccurate, which will IME affect what their characters do next every damn time.

And so, I would have those rolls be made in secret; thus it's the GM's dice determining whether the PCs' info is correct and-or complete rather than the GM's whim. Of course, this does require the players to trust the GM to be true to his rolls, but I'd (perhaps naively?) like to assume that truth-to-rolls is the default state anyway.

And if the dice tell me-as-DM they're going to get lied to or be sent on a wild goose chase because the info they get is bogus or wildly outdated then so be it. It's not a frequent occurrence in my games, but it does happen.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

No, I have no problem with you calling that agency. Clearly it adds agency to the game for you. Access to those knobs impacts your sense of agency. My gripe is not with that claim. You will note, I don't say, the all powerful GM is the only way this can be done. For me it is an essential feature of what made RPGs tick when I first encountered them, and crucial for opening up agency in something like a sandbox. But that doesn't mean what you are doing automatically has less agency. This is why I have been saying I am all for big tent. If people want PbtA sandboxes, I am all for it.

Where I am saying people are wrong is in this framing of it as agency as this objective thing, that goes up or down depending on style. And then the framing of the definition so in a sandbox you are at like 50% agency and in something like Blades in the Dark or Burning Wheel, you are at 80 or 90% agency. I am not the one framing this as living sandboxes are better. And I am trying to provide usage of the word agency that accounts for these two wildly different answers to the problem of railroading. When people say they want to run something like Blades int eh Dark, I don't say "if you cared about agency, you would probably prefer a sandbox living world, because that gives you more of what you say you love".

I am saying when you set up the definition of the term itself so it favors what you play as offering maximum agency, then when people throw in very acrobatic arguments about the GM needing to give players the most information when they can, even if that were obviously to be constrained by setting, the deck is being stacked in favor of a play style




I would say, the best way forward is common ground on terms like agency that don't treat it like yardage in a football match.
I wish I could find some. When we talked in Forge terms, which don't reference agency at all, we also got bashed! I'm not hostile to the notion that there are, ultimately aesthetic, reasons to play different sorts of RPG. It is clearly the case that no one game can fill all needs and match all tastes. Barring a few obvious cases, none of them can be better than another in any objective way.

It would be dishonest of me to say I don't have some doubts about certain claims about the need to do certain things in certain ways in order to achieve certain objectives. That's far short of being a condemnation of them though. This or that way of playing pleases people, so they are obviously advised to do those things, reasons are secondary really.
 



In this particular case, there was a time crunch (I think(, which suggests minimal prep time.
How long before the specific scenario with the Naga was it that the PC adopted the goal of bringing Joachim's blood to his master? I've been assuming this was a long-term goal of the character's, and what we're being told about is the key moment in which he actually got the blood he sought.

That intervening time between declaration of goal and the Naga scene is, one would think, when the character could have picked up a belt pouch and some very basic blood-collecting supplies.
 


So if the players blow a player-side roll they meta-know their information might be incomplete or inaccurate, which will IME affect what their characters do next every damn time.

Is it that surprising that if people suspect they have incomplete information with a topic, that they'd approach it differently?

I mean out in the world... let's not take posts on ENW into account on this!

And so, I would have those rolls be made in secret; thus it's the GM's dice determining whether the PCs' info is correct and-or complete rather than the GM's whim. Of course, this does require the players to trust the GM to be true to his rolls, but I'd (perhaps naively?) like to assume that truth-to-rolls is the default state anyway.

I think secret rolls are antagonistic to player agency.

I understand your reason for them due to our years of interaction... but what's gained is not worth what's lost.

And if the dice tell me-as-DM they're going to get lied to or be sent on a wild goose chase because the info they get is bogus or wildly outdated then so be it. It's not a frequent occurrence in my games, but it does happen.

But why would a dice roll dictate their behavior? Shouldn't the players get to choose how they want to react?
 

So if the players blow a player-side roll they meta-know their information might be incomplete or inaccurate, which will IME affect what their characters do next every damn time.

And so, I would have those rolls be made in secret; thus it's the GM's dice determining whether the PCs' info is correct and-or complete rather than the GM's whim. Of course, this does require the players to trust the GM to be true to his rolls, but I'd (perhaps naively?) like to assume that truth-to-rolls is the default state anyway.

And if the dice tell me-as-DM they're going to get lied to or be sent on a wild goose chase because the info they get is bogus or wildly outdated then so be it. It's not a frequent occurrence in my games, but it does happen.
Sure, OTOH I trust players to play with integrity. Why is one side of the screen privileged? I feel like this stems back to some primordial formulation of play where everything was supposed to be a contest between the GM's diabolical cunning dungeon design and the players ability to read between the lines and or bitch every pixel assiduously enough to not get squicked by the ear seekers. It's 2025, not 1975 anymore...
 

But what is meta agency? As far as I can tell, it’s something that’s been introduced just for this discussion.

What is player agency for soccer/football? What then is the meta agency for soccer/football?
Player agency might be the ability to decide who to pass the ball to, or whether to go for goal, or whether to try to tackle the ball carrier or hang back to block a passing lane.

Meta agency might be arbitrarily walking off the field to be subbed rather than waiting for the manager to make that call, even though substitutions are (barring injury) usually at the manager's sole discretion.
 

I mean, I'm operating with the definition of agency, and how it applies to playing games. As I said, that's as neutrally as I can manage.

Whereas you are dividing agency into two categories... character agency and meta agency. Which seems far more agenda driven than my take.

I view my players having just as much agency even though it's expressed in a different way. Their decisions have a different impact but it still drives the direction of the campaign and they are making important decisions that alter the game world all the time. The changes are simply, one again, different. Having agency to me isn't impacted by what decisions you make or what they affect, it's that you make decisions based on a reasonable level of knowledge and that the decisions matter.
 

Remove ads

Top