D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Micah Sweet]

Hang on - so in reply to someone's claim that the fiction causes things to happen in the real world, it's pedantic to explain why I think that is obviously false?

I am discussing honestly. I've posted endless actual play examples in this thread, analysed them to the Nth degree, been told that I'm lying and mistaken about my own examples but have continued to reply to those posters, and have explained the play of Burning Wheel and (to a lesser extent) Torchbearer 2e and 4e D&D at endless length.

Where are your actual play examples? Where is your contribution to analysis? What have you said in this thread that would help someone improve their RPGing? I'm pretty confident that anyone who wants to increase the degree of player agency in their RPGing, by adapting the sorts of techniques used in the RPGs I've posted about, will be able to learn useful stuff from my posts. Just as I have learned useful things over the years from others.

I agree with Robert, pretty much across the board. His style is my preferred style, and I see no flaw in his reasoning. I also have no interest in saying or implying that anyone else is wrong in their preference, or that what they like somehow doesn't exist because I've redefined the terms they use to describe it. But if someone does do that to my preference, or suggests that their subjective opinions about things that matter to me aren't, in fact, subjective, well I will comment on that.

 

[TwoSix]

But you still haven’t addressed my question: who or what exactly are you critiquing now that makes this clarification necessary?

And again. It's wasn't a clarification, it was an example.

And more importantly, you’ve yet to respond to my main point: if we don’t take the time to understand each other’s creative goals and assumptions about play, then defining terms alone won’t get us far. Without that foundation, we’re just going to keep repeating the same debates and talking past each other.

I don't really feel a response is necessary? "We should try to understand each other" is pretty much a truism. Am I going to make a defense of "Let's close ourselves off and not try to understand other people's point of view?"

I mean, if you think anyone here doesn't understand trad sandbox play, or how to design a prepped setting based on defined algorithms like "encounter tables" and mental heuristics that drive NPCs and faction activities, please say so.

 

[Micah Sweet]

At times in my life my problems would have been solved by bringing $100. But I didn't have it on me.

The character wasn't carrying a vessel. That's why he looked around for one. I don't see why this is so remarkable.

But if it's so important to them to catch the blood, why don't they have a cup? And if finding one in the room in questions isn't difficult, why did they have to roll? These are to me common sense questions.

 

[Micah Sweet]

None of your posts are confusing in any way.

I disagree with your usage of various terms, but I fully understand what you mean.

I mean, from the early '90s up until 2008 or so, trad/neotrad immersive "I am my character" play was all I did. I'm in no way confused by what you're describing.

Great! Then what's the problem?

 

[pemerton]

I mean, if you think anyone here doesn't understand trad sandbox play, or how to design a prepped setting based on defined algorithms like "encounter tables" and mental heuristics that drive NPCs and faction activities, please say so.

Right. Is there anyone posting in this thread who hasn't GMed and/or played in such a game?

 

[chaochou]

I wrote an extensive and considered examination of player agency here: An examination of player agency

It explains clearly why character agency is a worthless kludge.

I am sceptical when people who, despite having read and understood the analysis - and offered nothing by way of rebuttal beyond unsupported claims of their own exceptionalism - attempt to reintroduce character agency to the conversation.

 

[TwoSix]

Great! Then what's the problem?

Did I seem like I have a problem? What problem did you think I was having?

 

[Micah Sweet]

@Campbell (just to pick one poster who I know has a deep understanding of a wide range of approaches to RPGing) has never been confused by anything I've ever posted about scene-framing, stakes, intent-and-task, etc. Nevertheless you complain endlessly about "jargon". But seem to be put out when someone asks questions about your ways of framing things.

Why are others expected to take your way of thinking and talking about things as a default; rather than you theirs?

It doesn't have to be mine, but good communication IMO requires some kind of default, and I think more folks are likely to fully understand mine.

 

[Campbell]

It doesn't have to be mine, but good communication IMO requires some kind of default, and I think more folks are likely to fully understand mine.

That just brings us full circle wherein conventional play is assumed to be worthy of respect and less conventional forms of play must justify themselves in terms of conventional play norms which they do not conform to. That's utter horse hockey.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Hang on - so you can't actually conceive of a person not having the equipment that would help them? Have you never been caught in the rain without an umbrella, or in the cold without a jumper, or found yourself locked out of your house with your keys inside?

Completely bizarre, from my point of view.

Like I said, having a vessel at all times seems to be important to this character. Were they recently robbed?