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D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Let's begin with this: suppose that the players did invent every important setting element. How would that set back play?
Something I've noticed and read testimony to here is that it doesn't work for some players to explore what they invent. So there could be some engagement and suspension of disbelief set backs for those players. I don't count myself among them. Perhaps relatedly, I've noticed some players struggle with a loss of validity when they are tasked to both invent and resolve some conflict in respect of a setting element.

I've found that folk can overcome these set backs with acclimation... albeit perseverance in doing so relies on a player's belief in its value. It does seem that a sense of mystery (and surprise, perhaps) is changed and often lost through being the inventing party.
 

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The other thing explicit constraints in games do is help the whole group understand what is expected of them and also what you will not be getting from an experience. If I know that moments of personal stakes will be fairly rare and not be celebrated at the table I can choose to be invested in the things the game is about rather than pushing for something that will never materialize (or will rarely materialize). So, I can enjoy a game for what it is instead of being frustrated for what it is not. Getting to enjoy Apocalypse World helps me to enjoy other play experiences because I am not creatively frustrated.
 

Constraints are a good thing. It's good that we have different games that have different constraints for players and GMs. Its level set a good thing that Daggerheart and D&D present different GM and player roles so we can have different sorts of experiences, and it becomes easier to select and find the sort of play experiences we are after. That we do not have to swim in the same waters.

All we're looking for is acknowledgement that we can share the hobby without sharing tables and that structure of play is a valid vector of game design. That such designs should not need to justify their existence against normative standards of play.

There has been plenty of acknowledgement that other styles of play are valid from just about every poster that I've seen that prefer "traditional" games. There may be some misunderstanding because the approach of narrative games is very different and far too frequently people trying to explain how they work simply don't do a very good job.

It's all just personal preference. I only want to experience play through my character because that's what works best for me. If a different approach works better for you, great! Except from the other side of the fence there's claims that all D&D and related games are railroads, the GM controls 99% of what happens, that GMs must have restrictions on what they do or they will abuse their role in the game and players need to be protected. It's stated that we're playing a game and the true believers experience something that transcends the gaming experience, although I assume that was just trolling.

We don't have to agree what the best approach is because there is no "best". There's just different options for different folks.
 

There has been plenty of acknowledgement that other styles of play are valid from just about every poster that I've seen that prefer "traditional" games. There may be some misunderstanding because the approach of narrative games is very different and far too frequently people trying to explain how they work simply don't do a very good job.

It's all just personal preference. I only want to experience play through my character because that's what works best for me. If a different approach works better for you, great! Except from the other side of the fence there's claims that all D&D and related games are railroads, the GM controls 99% of what happens, that GMs must have restrictions on what they do or they will abuse their role in the game and players need to be protected. It's stated that we're playing a game and the true believers experience something that transcends the gaming experience, although I assume that was just trolling.

We don't have to agree what the best approach is because there is no "best". There's just different options for different folks.

There are plenty of people in these threads (@robertsconley @Lanefan @Micah Sweet) who have said game designers should not design games that change up the normative roles. That do not recognize the legitimacy of different play structures. Who continue to talk in terms of what game designers and GMs "should do". That reject there is any value in changing how these roles are constructed, how authority and responsibility are allocated to suit different sorts of play experiences.

We're asked to continually justify why we arrange play in the way we do, with the implication being that our years of experience pursuing the aims we pursue is meaningless.

It's not that GMs need to be constrained for good play. It's that changing this stuff up can help us achieve certain creative goals. That our play should be evaluated with those creative goals in mind.
 

There are plenty of people in these threads (@robertsconley @Lanefan @Micah Sweet) who have said game designers should not design games that change up the normative roles. That do not recognize the legitimacy of different play structures. Who continue to talk in terms of what game designers and GMs "should do". That reject there is any value in changing how these roles are constructed, how authority and responsibility are allocated to suit different sorts of play experiences.

We're asked to continually justify why we arrange play in the way we do, with the implication being that our years of experience pursuing the aims we pursue is meaningless.

People are stating their personal preferences on what they want. You'll have to provide receipts to prove otherwise.
 

I've grown to really value the combination of meta-channel openness and atmosphere of inquiry the games engines I'm currently running expect for this. My players often pause and like, step through their reasoning of why their character is about to do something - or if it's a PC to PC conversation may go like "you probably expected Sol to do X here, but then his expression twists and you can tell he's remembering that moment his ricochets hit Aodhan before he turns away muttering "no, never mind - you go on ahead." Like, that's so cool! We get to see how the consequences (game term) turn into character consequences (roleplaying/soft), and maybe get baked into mechanics again (memories-> adjusting beliefs).
This is going off into a different set of preferences now, but personally, I'm not a fan of the thought-bubble approach. In a comic, it's a necessity of the medium, but it's rightly derided in a TV show/film as poor writing. At the table, I want that characterisation, but show me. So instead of 'then his expression twists and you can tell he's remembering that moment his ricochets hit Aodhan before he turns away muttering "no, never mind - you go on ahead."', I prefer something like "his face twists to a look of regret, and with reticence in his voice says [switches to character voice]"no, never mind - you go on ahead"' Ideally, the other players can tell what that regret is, but that requires players who actually pay attention to each other's characters, and that seems to be so infuriatingly rare.
 

Just to clarify. When you say cast, you mean the characters in the play and not the actors playing the characters?

So, you have the cast (as in the characters in the play) and the setting. But, you don't have any plot yet. And, typically, cast definitions are pretty sparse - Name (so and so's uncle), Name (so and so's wife) etc. So, no, not really at that point. But, once you start defining those characters in terms of conflict - giving them factions and motivations - then yes, I would call that a story.

At least, that's how I would define it.

Bob - a fighter. (not a story)
Bob - a fighter in Waterdeep (still not a story)
Bob - a fighter in Waterdeep searching for the Macguffin of Whatever in the Undermountain and will approach the party in order to try to hire them - that's pretty close to a story.
One might think about this from AW

A grotesque is a person—remember fundamentally a person, human, not a monster—whose humanity has been nevertheless somehow crippled. Choose which kind of grotesque:​
Cannibal (impulse: craves satiety and plenty)​
Mutant (impulse: craves restitution, recompense)​
Pain addict (impulse: craves pain, its own or others’)​
Disease vector (impulse: craves contact, intimate and/or anonymous)​
Mindfucker (impulse: craves mastery)​
Perversion of birth (impulse: craves overthrow, chaos, the ruin of all)​
Threat moves for grotesques:​
Push reading a person.​
Display the nature of the world it inhabits.​
Display the contents of its heart.​
Attack someone from behind or otherwise by stealth.​
Attack someone face-on, but without threat or warning.​
Insult, affront, offend or provoke someone.​
Offer something to someone, or do something for someone, withstrings attached.​
Put it in someone’s path, part of someone’s day or life.​
Threaten someone, directly or else by implication.​
Steal something from someone.​
Seize and hold someone.​
Ruin something. Befoul, rot, desecrate, corrupt, adulter it.​

For instance, Monk is a grotesque: pain addict, so his impulse is to seekpain. Maybe the move I choose for him just now is attack someone frombehind: “Damson, someone steps up behind you in the line for showers and loops a wire around your throat. What do you do?” Dog Head is a member of some brutes: hunting pack, so his impulse is to victimize someone who stands out. Maybe I just choose to announce off-screen badness:“ Marie, when you see Isle that morning her face is a mess. Somebody cut her cheek open with a heated knife. She won’t say who.” The rag-waste is a landscape: breeding pit, so its impulse is to generate badness. Maybe I have it disgorge something: “Keeler, you were out scavenging yesterday? Cool. You wake up before morning, there are these weird bugs all through your room. They’re about this big, black and red, a little like tiny crayfish. They’re in all your crap, your food, your clothing, your bed, which is what woke you up…”​
I share (what I take to be) your sense that setting and cast, even with motives and a job to do, may not yet count as a story. As to what might count as story, one has to add plot but construction of plot is not one-sided. In most modes of play GM is looking after some threads while the players look after others -- the story is what they produce between them. To extend your example, the fighter approaches the party and they turn her down and do something else, so the story for that group unfolds in a different direction.

Perhaps narrativism (which I sometimes now reflect on as 'dramatism') is not particularly well distinguished from sandbox by GM being an author of story. Other differences could include management of scene, temporality and continuity, consciousness of authorship, the proper subjects and focus of play, how and when authorship is assigned and triggered, use of meta-mechanics... not as a matter of presence or absence but of emphasis or priority.
 
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A GM is always a story teller. I just don't understand the resistance to calling what we do as DM/GM's story telling.
I think it might have something to do with the "game" part of "roleplaying game".
To me, sandbox=player freedom to choose the direction of the campaign.
The degree to which a campaign might be considered sandboxing will vary on the degree of freedom the players have. And there are all sorts of different sandboxes and approaches to creating them.
This is completely in-line with everything I've been saying, so here we agree.
The rest is all just trying to mystify the procedure.
This is absolutely not the case though. Nearly everyone here, regardless of preferences, has been doing the exact opposite of "trying to mystify".
 
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You,me, and every single person who sits behind a DM's screen is a story teller.
So, to try to bridge the divide, I'm going to use an analogy. A parent telling their child a bedtime story.
A parent reading the story from a book would be akin to a railroad GM.
A parent ad libbing a story, incorporating interjections from their kid, going in wildly random directions as a result would be akin to the sandbox GM.
In both cases, the parent (GM) is "telling" a story.

Would that be a fair representation of how you view it?
 

I don't think my play is transcendent. I'm not a skilled enough actor /roleplayer for that. But I do approach my play with creative intentions to delve into the personal, emotional lives of the characters I play and I try to bring that out when I run games. I don't think it's wild to say that Legion and Shang Chi were approached with different sorts of creative intentions. Both feature excellent actors and Shang Chi has some poignant moments, but it is not aiming for the same sort of emotional depth that Legion is aiming for. Just like there are some moments in Shang Chi that hit harder than some moments in Legion the same can be said for play that is not aiming for personal stakes.

My play is not transcendent, but it's also not something I approach as an excuse to hang out with friends. I'm friends with the people I play with, but this and Nordic LARP are my creative outlets. For me roleplaying games are an extension of my theater background - a way for me to step into cathartic emotional experiences. I'm not going to apologize for that intention. It doesn't make the play better. The intentions are just different.

I also think when other folks have their own lofty ambitions (travel guide to another world) being all kerplumped over the creative ambitions people might approach games like Dogs in the Vineyard with is silly.
 
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