D&D 5E Ravenloft Previews of Dementlieu, Lamordia, and Har'Akir

WotC has been sprinkling previews of individual Ravenloft domains to various websites -- including Dementlieu, Lamordia, and Har'Akir. Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft is only a couple of weeks away, coming out on May 18th!

Dementlieu​

• Forbes takes a look Dementlieu, which has inspirations like Cinderella, The Masque of the Red Death, and Dark City. "Dementlieu is one of over 30 domains of dread detailed in the book. It’s a sharp contrast to Barovia’s dark forest and looming Gothic castle on a hill. Instead it’s covered in a glamorous sheen of fine clothes and fancy parties. Everyone is dying to be invited to the Grand Masquerade held by Duchess Saidra d’Honaire every week on her private island. And, in many cases, killed if they are discovered at the ball if they’re not supposed to be there."
• Syfy Wire looks at Lamordia, inspired by Frankenstein. "Many of the Domains of Dread are inspired by some horror tale or piece of creepy folklore, and Lamordia definitely has its roots in Frankenstein. But while the Domain is inspired by that classic horror story, its elements are then shot through the lens of D&D adventures and explored to dozens of horrific extremes. Mordenheim's land isn't just about resurrection gone awry, it's also the Domain for all different types of science gone wrong, bizarre experiments, body horror weirdness, and grim tales of society versus a frigid land. Just as there's more to Frankenstein than a scientist who abandoned his child, there's more to Lamordia than stitches and semi-dead flesh."
• Polygon has Har'Akir, an Egyptian-themed domain. "Why is there a Domain that is a desert that is riddled with these ancient, inexplicable haunted monuments and ruined pyramids? How does a Domain like that exist? How does it make sense? To an extent it doesn’t, and it’s going to be the players that come and explore that, who are some of the only people that realize that the entirety of the domain is, to an extent, gaslighting them."

Ankhetop, darklord of Har'Akir

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[Hussar]

Do you not think this is somewhat hyperbolic?

Preservation of Egyptian Antiquities and Sites is part of a shared world heritage. The portrayal of tomb robbing as being a white colonial attitude is pretty unsophisticated. More antiquities were stolen from tombs by Eqyptian nationals than ever by British and French archeologists, and while no doubt a large number of items went into private collections a huge amount was also preserved for shared human knowledge and understanding.

Tomb robbing is also not limited to the days of Howard Carter. Sites have been recently at risk from Egyptian criminal organizations, and even everyday citizens. Citizens are building houses on precious sites and damaging ancient wonders that aren’t understood by those who are just looking for somewhere to live. The government couldn’t protect them. Who owns humanity’s history?

The Loss and Looting of Egyptian Antiquities

Even now the morality of Egyptology of the 19th and 20th is debated and as does Egyptology today. The museum in Cairo is described as the worlds worst museum displaying the worlds greatest treasures. Poor arrangement, antiquated displays, environmental issues, even water leaks into cases!

Protecting Tutankhamun - Victoria and Albert Museum

Can you expand on those ‘unbelievably racist underpinnings’ that make you want to ‘wash your eyes out with bleach’ and that reads like ‘white supremacist fan-fix’?... I ain’t seeing it.

Debate and things to learn sure. Let’s just keep things proportional.

Well, let's take the Brendan Frasier Mummy movies shall we? ((Note, I LIKE these movies, but, it doesn't mean I can't recognize the problems))

Bad guy is played by a white guy with a spray on tan.

The protagonist is white.

Our one Egyptian protagonist is 100% stereotype, right down to stoic warrior staring down at the scenery, being all mysterious and all.

Our female protagonist is a ditsy damsel in distress.

I mean, this thing is very, very much grounded in the times. Going back to the Karloff The Mummy? Not a heck of a lot better.

 

[Charlaquin]

I've never really cared if something I like falls out of fashion. My formative D&D years were spent in 2nd edition, so for me, the metaplot is a big part of the story of D&D. I certainly enjoy making an individual game my own, and I understand that this is for players, not readers. Still, Ravenloft was my favorite campaign setting, and I liked the story they were telling.

Shouldn’t telling a story be the job of each playgroup? I mean, it’s great that you liked the meta-plot, but there are a lot of folks who didn’t. Settings often set up dramatic questions with big stakes so the players can answer them in their own campaigns. Coming up with canonical resolutions inherently invalidates the stories being told at the table by real play groups, who then have to decide if they want to ignore the meta-plot, or ret-con their own campaigns.

I appreciated when the change to Arthaus for 3rd edition continued the story rather than rewrote it, and have a particular dislike of changing history to fit the current paradigm. What they're doing feels like they want to pretend the past doesn't exist, and frankly it makes me a little sad.

Let’s not be over-dramatic here. There’s no Ministry of Truth changing the text in the old books. Nobody is changing history or pretending the past doesn’t exist. They’re just moving on from the past. 5e Ravenloft is not 2e Ravenloft, neither of which are 3e Ravenloft. You can use the bits of each you like, and weave your own story that connects them if you like, and other groups can choose different bits that they like. That’s a positive thing.

I think of it like Marvel vs. DC in terms of story continuity. DC has reset their universe many, many times, such that no particular character has anything close to a consistent past. Marvel has, for the most part, never claimed that their history didn't happen, or happened in another universe. They just layer more on top. As far as I'm concerned, make mine Marvel!

And yet, the MCU has a completely different continuity than the comics. Different mediums demand different approaches. What works well for continuity in a comic book series is not the same as what works well for a film franchise based on the same characters, which is not the same as what works well for an RPG based on them.

 

[Charlaquin]

One thing I can see where folks might have issue is it potentially creates misunderstandings if different people in the group cleave to different interpretations of the setting. If someone adores 3e FR lore vs 5E FR lore, it might lead to a moment of disconnect. I mean, I'm guessing, because I am not really a setting person. I think setting books are generally presented as dry text books and I never make it past the overview chapters.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Whatever any given player’s understanding of a setting’s lore might be, the “correct” lore for their game is whatever the DM presents. If it’s inconsistent with “canon” or whatever... The DM’s version of things wins.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

The fact that it’s a debate should show you that it isn’t as cut and dried as some would have you believe. As you’ll see from my linked article Egyptian sites were being looted or built on following the governments inability to protect them following the revolution. Yes that is a justification. Just as the horrendous air pollution in Athens was grounds for keeping the Elgin Marbles. These things are not limited to colonialism. Protecting, maintaining and learning from the worlds history is the main reason I’d suggest for the scientists that operate the museums to do so. Whether this is a good enough justification for you is a political issue.

Now when you add in the fact that the artifacts in a D&D/Har’Akir game are being taken from evil creatures. It seems to seem very peculiar to get excited about how disgraceful it is. Particularly when there’s no suggestion that stealing from Ankhtepot will be a particularly good idea.

Literally anything can be made into a debate; just because someone is willing to defend something doesn't suddenly mean that opinion is even close to morally justified.

The point is, even if there intents are just, there is no moral justification that gives a museum a right to hold artifacts from a culture that wants said artifacts returned. It doesn't matter what the reasons of the historians and archeologists are (who I largely believe are good people), if a country wants there stuff back, they should get it back.

If I steal your car, I can't justify my actions by saying, "Well, the car hadn't been taken to a repair shop in years, so it needed an oil change and tire rotations, fixed tail-lights... with him, the car would be in a dump in a two years. With me, I'll take care of it and it will last another 10 years. Plus, he lives in a bad neighborhood, so the car would get stolen by a petty car thief eventually."

I might even believe the above quote, and think I would be a far better car owner... that doesn't justify stealing.

 

[Hussar]

And, @TheSword, I'd also point out a major element that you seem to have missed. While you are absolutely right that tomb robbing is a huge problem, there is a significant difference. No one paints Egyptian tomb robbers as heroes, saving the damsel, protecting the world from the heathen beliefs of primitive peoples.

Think about it this way. If Brenden Fraser's character had been played by an Egyptian actor and given and Egyptian name, what would be the odds that that character would remain the protagonist? Or, would that character then be changed to the villain and Arnold Vosloo would be the hero?

 

[jgsugden]

You’re playing a game with inherently evil races where all those inherently evil races are encoded with decades to centuries old real-world racist imagery, where a reoccurring goal of the PCs is to invade those evil races’ homes, kill them all, steal everything that you can, and rest up so you can go out and kill even more ugly and darker skinned evil races. D&D is the genocide and colonialism role-playing game. Congrats. You’re already playing white supremacy fanfic the RPG.

That isn't all there is to D&D today, and was not the only way to play since the beginning. A lot of us have played in political games without any dungeon delving and slaughter - in the 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s and now 20s.

Hack and slash is far from the only way to go.

 

[Remathilis]

I think of it like Marvel vs. DC in terms of story continuity. DC has reset their universe many, many times, such that no particular character has anything close to a consistent past. Marvel has, for the most part, never claimed that their history didn't happen, or happened in another universe. They just layer more on top. As far as I'm concerned, make mine Marvel!

:: Adjusts nerd glasses :: Acshullally

Marvel has reset its continuity a couple times; its just that they never outright invalidate any previous story. (Though The do something contradict, hence the infamous No Prize) For example, Secret Wars (2015) ended every Marvel continuity and smashed them into one. It looks similar to the classic 616 continuity, but several interlopers (such as Miles Morales from the Ultimate universe) came through and became permanently part of the universe with little attempt to explain them into past events. This is how we get characters like MM Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, or Gwenpool all running around in the same universe together.

Further, Marvel has a sliding timescale that says thier continuity is never more than 10 years from the current year; which has resulted in many characters getting adjusted origins (Punisher has fought in several wars; Iron Man was kidnapped from several battlefronts), several "tricky" origins (Magneto's WW2 origin gets more and more difficult to explain) and a lot of condensed history (Spider-Man has been killed, cloned, replaced, dated two girls, married one and "unmarried", and watch Aunt May die several times, all in the course of 10 years). So, by this point, Marvel Continuity is less "this happened" and more "if its releveant, it happened. If it isn't, it didn't".

To bring it back to RPGs, 5e's Forgotten Realms is Marvel; it's not outright saying the Spellplague didn't happen, but its more-or-less ignoring it unless it's something it finds relevant (IE the coming of dragonborn) with every major NPC from the 1300's surviving somehow to the 1400's with a lot of hand-waving involved. Whereas 5e Ravenloft IS much closer to DC's "New 52" reboot, where some things still count (Batman's entire history, including 4 different Robins, fit in 10 years) some things don't (Superman was the launch-point of the story so his marriage, death, and rebirth were all gone) and some things happened differently, but still happened (the formation of the Teen Titans, which couldn't happen in continuity due to the timeframe, still was discussed). The difference of course, is that for WotC it was easier to restore things taken away from Faerun during 4e than it was to remove things from Ravenloft, which is why its simpler to allow Faerun to handwave Mirt the Moneylender's return than it is explain how Victor Mordenheim became Viktra.

Ultimately, the fate of any continuity long enough to survive multiple decades is that cannon must be expunged at corrected. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, DC, Marvel, Transformers, you name the property I'll find you the apocrypha items that no longer fit it its chronology. Sometimes it's easier to start fresh, sometimes it's easier to ignore it and move on. No one-size-fits-all solution exists.

 

[Hussar]

Well... other than... Tomb of Annihilation.

To be fair Rime of the Frost Maiden, Curse of Strahd, Descent into Avernus also had a fair few tombs between them. Dungeon of the Mad mage had several scattered between the levels.

Heh, I totally forgot Tomb of Annihilation. My bad.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Our female protagonist is a ditsy damsel in distress.

It has been a while since I have seen the movie, but this really strikes me as a mischaracterization of her. I thought she was great in this movie number one. But two, she was smart in that film from what I recall (and was a librarian if I remember). But she was clumsy and a little absent-minded, which isn't ditzy in my view but more like the absent minded professor type. The franchise wasn't the same without her. I think one of the great things about Rachel Weisz is she can play a character like that in an action movie, but then play someone like Hypatia in the movie Agora.

I don't want to get deep into this discussion again, as we had a very similar one. But I think overall, most of your critiques are extremely uncharitable.

 

[Hussar]

Then again I ask: why use Ravenloft at all if you're going to "reinvent" it so completely? The only reason I can see is crass name recognition to get more people to buy it, and that's not a good enough reason for me. I agree that this is the direction D&D seems to be going, I would just rather they build on the old lore rather than reanimate it's IP and put it in a new body. They seem embarrassed by their past but unwilling to give up the financial benefits that come from using the old names.

You say that like we have to use something 100% unchanged or never use it. That's NEVER how art works. We take things, rework it, rebuilt it, reimagine it, all the time. That's how art always works. It's no different than taking Lovecraftian horror, stripping out the racism, and leaving the good stuff behind. And there really is lots of good stuff in Lovecraft. And, it's still good even AFTER you take out the eye watering racism and bigotry in his works. This is no different.

I don’t even know how to respond to this except to say I think you are projecting a lot here and overreacting just a tad.

Ok, you and I have gone around on this more than a few times. Instead of rehashing the same arguments yet again, let me try this. WotC (and Hasbro) has very publicly and repeatedly stated it's devotion to being inclusive and culturally sensitive. They may have made missteps, but, it's pretty clear that they are going to try every chance they get. Now, being culturally sensitive is the new "Green Product" of today. Back in the day, proclaiming your product as "Green" and "Good for the Environment" was part and parcel of marketing. It simply made good economic sense to do so - you built up good will for your product and increased sales. And, by and large, you built up positive news coverage of your product as well if you did it right.

Well, guess what? This isn't really all that different. WotC can point to their efforts and they earn themselves buckets of goodwill. And, frankly, anyone arguing against the changes is essentially arguing in favor of racism. That's the unfortunate truth. It doesn't really matter how solid your argument is, at the end of the day, you're defending racism. And that's never a good look.

The argument that I'm seeing is that they are not being "respectful" to the original material. Seriously? Does anyone think that Curse of Strahd isn't respectful to the original adventure? One of the best regarded 5e modules isn't being "respectful"? What did they change? They changed the Vistani to correct a depiction that should never have been there in the first place. Does anyone want to argue that the module would be better if we went back to the original depiction of the Vistani?

At the end of the day, WotC has been very, very clear about what they will do with these older products being updated for a modern audience. They have not made any secrets of this. Why are people suddenly surprised about this? Every single time WotC does exactly what they said they were going to do, people come forward to decry "TRADITION!!!" as if that somehow justified anything. How many times will we have identical conversations before folks give it up as a lost cause?