OGL Read the actual OGL document and take the survey when it comes out

Remathilis

Legend
Just to be clear, "total surrender" is "move back to where everyone in the world including Wotc though was how it goes have been for the past 20 years".

Everything authorized, OGL irrevocable. It may take a 1.0b to do that, but no other changes.

And then, if they want to come out with a new version of OGL, go for it. Every 3PP and OGL game is protected,a nd they have plenty of clout to bring people to their new OGL promising carrots like having it on their VTT and DnDBeyond.

Putting it as "total surrender" really is using emotional language to bias towards one side of this. Gamers aren't looking for a whit more than what has been the status quo for decades.
Total surrender is WotC giving back everything 1.0a had and adding "irrevocable" as a just for thinking they could amend it. WotC believes it has the power to amend it. Whether it does is a question for the courts. But I see no path forward where WotC does not get something from this negotiation.

The OGL community have already won the bigger victory; ORC will come out and guarantee free and open gaming for eternity, written into a modern contract that can reflect on 20 years of experience with the OGL. And it won't be beholden to any single company. That is OGL 1.0b in essence, with the exception of the lack of WotC's SRDs in it. WotC already fumbled its biggest bargaining chip. We already won.

The question now is what are people and WotC willing to negotiate to use WotC's OGC. That's the fight over 1.x now. WotC wants people to only use their 5.x SRD to make certain D&D compatible products within certain parameters. We get to tell WotC if that's reasonable or no dice. That's how we move forward with WotC. Sticking our heels in the dirt and demanding not only that WotC gets no ground but also that we demand more ground seems counterproductive.

I too would have loved WotC to leave well enough alone. But that didn't happen. So now, knowing ORC is going to be the backbone of the open RPG community and not WotC, we can negotiate a deal that is amicable to both gamers and Hasbro. We're not going to get there by demanding blood.
 

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So are we going to be called shills for WotC if we say to fill out the survey?

I'm going to fill in the survey. It can't hurt, and it might help. But I think it's important that filling in the survey doesn't mean you don't call out WotC via other channels too. The survey results are far too easy for them to curate or lie about, even assuming that the questions are written in good faith and address the real issues.
 

Do what you like with the survey, but honestly I think the survey is just another compounding mistake on WotC's part, because it commits them to a window of not taking firm action when they really need to take a firm stance and lock down the situation, and needed to a week or two ago. If they actually need the survey, they have no idea what they are doing. If it's just a public relations ploy, or stall tactic then it's an incredibly short-sighted one. At best it stalls out a few prominent voices from denouncing them by extending the period during which people who would rather avoid talking can say "I don't want to comment until we know what is actually going to be in the final OGL". But when they eventually take actions which almost certainly contradict the survey feedback they got (or that everyone is convinced must contradict the results) there goes whatever ounce of goodwill a survey bought them.

What WotC needed to do was back off more or less completely, and they need to have already done it. It's already too late. Even if ultimately WotC improbably decided, on the basis of overwhelming survey results, to not deauthorize the old OGL, too much damage has already been done.

Few people with skin in the game are actually still on the fence. Everyone with D&D related products, or who seriously considered creating such products in the future, spent the last few days considering whether they want their business, career, or side hustle to depend on a creepy, shortsighted, and untrustworthy corporation. And many of them are now thinking about how fast they can come up with their own rpg, whether a 5e clone or not. Those that aren't are looking for other games to support. Every internet personality who established their following as a 5e D&D brand cheerleader is probably already looking to move on or diversify rather than working on a pivot to being a OneD&D brand cheerleader. What all these people have doubtlessly already decided by now is they don't want to be as dependent on the whims of WotC as they have been, whatever happens with the OGL.

The right new OGL might slow the bleeding. It might keep people with 5e projects half made from cancelling them, and keep people from being in an immediate hurry to find new games to support and base their businesses and brands around.

But the trust is dead and can't be resurrected. The sense of stability upon which someone can build a brand, business, career, or slightly monetized hobby side-hustle business is dead. The seeds of a thousand competitor games have been sown, a few of which will actually succeed, but all of which will exist at the direct expense of D&D's market dominance. Inertia will carry 5e onward for a time, even if some of us who have up until now bought into it hard are done buying. But OneD&D, already shaping up to be the lesser child of a greater parent, whose main actual selling point was brand dominance and the inevitability of its eventual ubiquity, may well not get far as part of a diminished, less ubiquitous brand.
 

Scribe

Legend
So are we going to be called shills for WotC if we say to fill out the survey?

Of course not.

Your going to tell them they are wrong for going after the 1.0 OGL right?

Right?!

Jimmy Fallon Reaction GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
 

There is a 0% chance any question regarding leaving the OGL alone is going to be among the curated things they ask about. Any such feedback will have to go in the suggestion box, which will 100% be screaming into the void. Filling out the survey is fine, if you want to waste your time, but only sustained pressure on Hasbro's bottom line will ACTUALLY get results.
 

Scribe

Legend
There is a 0% chance any question regarding leaving the OGL alone is going to be among the curated things they ask about. Any such feedback will have to go in the suggestion box, which will 100% be screaming into the void. Filling out the survey is fine, if you want to waste your time, but only sustained pressure on Hasbro's bottom line will ACTUALLY get results.

I dont think any pressure will do it, because I think they have convinced themselves of an irrational position.

For the last week or so, I figured it 5e-alike clones they feared, in the idea that another Pathfinder could come out, but frankly does Wizbro even care? I doubt it, thats not enough to take a bite out of the "D&D" Monolith.

So, OK, its not that. So what is it?

Well, CR is buddy buddy with Amazon. CR, makes products. CR, has a pretty strong branding. Hmm.

My (as of 10 minutes ago) position is that Wizbro actually thinks their 5e rules set, is worth all this damage to their image. They have done enough damage to their actual branding (Settings/Lore) that I cannot accept that is the issue, especially when none of that IS IN THE 1.0 OGL.

So no, cant be it.

Instead? They literally think their rule set is SO GOOD, that they are willing to blow everything up in an effort to protect it from Amazon, or Disney via a group like Critical Role creating a 5e-like rule set, but with actual branding behind it....

Am I Wrong Lol GIF by Lifetime
 

Instead? They literally think their rule set is SO GOOD, that they are willing to blow everything up in an effort to protect it from Amazon, or Disney via a group like Critical Role creating a 5e-like rule set, but with actual branding behind it....
I don't buy that the executives behind the OGL catastrophe have any strong opinions on the rule set or any other part of the actual product. I think they're boundless irrational confidence is all with the brand. I think they believe they could slap an ampersand logo on anything and it would turn to gold.

This debacle is all just the hubris of a corporation that thinks its brand dominance is strong enough to play hardball with all its brand partners.

And heck, if they'd started with a modest proposal rather than an extreme one that radicalized everyone against them it probably would have worked out.
 

Scribe

Legend
I don't buy that the executives behind the OGL catastrophe have any strong opinions on the rule set or any other part of the actual product. I think they're boundless irrational confidence is all with the brand. I think they believe they could slap an ampersand logo on anything and it would turn to gold.

This debacle is all just the hubris of a corporation that thinks its brand dominance is strong enough to play hardball with all its brand partners.

And heck, if they'd started with a modest proposal rather than an extreme one that radicalized everyone against them it probably would have worked out.

I feel you, regarding the arrogance and hubris, thats ALL over the original leaks.

However, I think at some level, there has to be this concern about what they actually have.

If its just the Logo, just Brand Name, just historical "Its D&D" thats a factually weak position for them to be in, because even the most delusional should have some moments of clarity regarding just what position they are actually in.

Again, they disavowed their history, and have worked to make it all more generic as they go, especially in the last what 5 years? Not a good move.

They are trying to protect something. If its about slapping the only thing they have with power on stuff (the logo/name) thats not something anyone could do BUT them. So that cannot be it.

They are going out of their way to obnoxiously NOT state "we heard you on the 1.0 OGL". It just has to be the pivot point. It has to be the fulcrum of all they are doing. Why?

The SRD for 5.0.
 




Do what you like with the survey, but honestly I think the survey is just another compounding mistake on WotC's part, because it commits them to a window of not taking firm action when they really need to take a firm stance and lock down the situation, and needed to a week or two ago.

The problem for them right now is that no matter what they do it is a mistake. Even unconditional surrender might do more harm to them than good.
 


Of course not.

Your going to tell them they are wrong for going after the 1.0 OGL right?

Right?!

Jimmy Fallon Reaction GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
I am going to tell them I don't want a 1 week turn around for companies to complie, and not very happy with a 6 month one. If they have to make these channges I see no reason why the 'grandfather in' part can't last until 2 months before 1D&D hits shelves and even then should have a rider saying that if you took preorders or kickstarter in 2023 and it got delayed it can still deliver after that date...
But I am sure you wont be happy with that.
 

This would be very easy for them/their data analysis software to classify as "junk" data, and separate from the rest of the results.

You'll get responses like that even on surveys where the subject matter isn't as emotionally charged as this one is for this audience. That's why, on some forms, you'll get the same question asked different ways, where for one phrasing it makes sense to respond with a low rank, and the other with a high rank. A consistent and honest respondent wouldn't answer the same to both of those. That way you can filter out the people who aren't responding in a valuable way.
True. A more effective way of making the survey less useable would be to set up an auto-roller to generate random responses, weighted to group results just enough so that it doesn't look like random responses to an algorithm.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I don't think you understand.

Everyone figures they can build a clone of 5e in about 6 months
e.g. literally an exact clone, just without the proprietary IP:
example:

The creator world has moved on, one D&D is dead, long live the hundred D&D.
Alternate take: Don't. They proved already they can't be trusted. Leave them behind and never turn back.
1674146182606.jpeg
 

True. A more effective way of making the survey less useable would be to set up an auto-roller to generate random responses, weighted to group results just enough so that it doesn't look like random responses to an algorithm.
That would be a very unhelpful move. Why should someone sabotage a survey that might help WotC back on the right way?
Is this even legal to interfere with a survey in this way?
 

That would be a very unhelpful move. Why should someone sabotage a survey that might help WotC back on the right way?
Is this even legal to interfere with a survey in this way?
I had people on a FB group for OSR say they were going to but then stopped when they realized the would need to make thousands of twitch or Gmail accts for it to work
 

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