Readying an action for when Time Stop ends

[Sagiro]

This rules issue arose in tonight's high-level 3.5 session. I will present the situation in as neutral a way as possible, so as not to influence answers.

First, the relevent text for the spell:

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

Here's the scenario.

1. Wizard uses a Standard Action to cast time stop. Het rolls a 3, and so gets 4 rounds of "apparent time."

2. On rounds 1, 2 and 3, he casts some standard buffing spells.

3. On round 4, he Readies an action to target his foe with disintegrate, on the condition of time restarting for everyone else.

4. The time stop ends, triggering the Readied action. He casts disintegrate.

Legal?

Thanks for your opinions,

Sagiro

 

[Piratecat]

We're all interested to see what common wisdom is on this. It's quite possible that I ran it wrong for 3 years, but I'm honestly not sure.

 

[Jack Simth]

Technically, nothing in the rules as written prevents that from working. It's up there on "bad ideas" (in the "too cheesy" sense and in the "you don't want your opponents doing this" sense) though.

 

[akbearfoot]

If you ready an action then your action happens right before the event that triggers it occurs...

So if you ready an action to attack when time stop ends, then when your attack happens it goes off right before the time stop ends....paradox occurs and your character is sucked into a quantum anomoly and erased from existence...seem fair?


Comparison is you ready an action to attack someone of they make an attack...as soon as they try to make an attack your readied action goes off and you attack them BEFORE they attack.

Or you could be technical and say since the mage is time stopped and cannot affect of be affected by anyone else from the outside world than he is not considered to be in combat...If he is not in combat then he cannot ready an action.

I'd rule the same way if a group of PCs encountered say...a fighter stuck in temporal stasis....they cannot have a combat with him, because they cannot affect him and vice versa.

 

[Runestar]

Technically, time stop does not actually stop time. It merely speeds the caster up so greatly that everyone else appear to be statues.

Comparison is you ready an action to attack someone of they make an attack...as soon as they try to make an attack your readied action goes off and you attack them BEFORE they attack.

Then we just need to state the triggering action to be a split moment after time stop ends. That should allow the wizard to cast an attack spell right after time stop finished but before anyone else has a chance to act.

My issue with this is not so much the timing, but the way the extra time is generated. My understanding is that the DM keeps all rolls hidden (which should in theory at least, extend to npc casters as well). So unless you cast a maximized timestop (so you know you get exactly 5 rounds), the wizard should not know how much time he has gained with timestop. So he shouldn't know when his last round is.

 

[Sagiro]

My issue with this is not so much the timing, but the way the extra time is generated. My understanding is that the DM keeps all rolls hidden (which should in theory at least, extend to npc casters as well). So unless you cast a maximized timestop (so you know you get exactly 5 rounds), the wizard should not know how much time he has gained with timestop. So he shouldn't know when his last round is.

Assume for this example that the wizard knows how many rounds he has -- or else, knowing he has at least two rounds, he only casts one buffing spell and then Readies with his second "free" action.

My issue with this tactic is that it neatly circumvents the spell's key limitation -- that the "free" actions cannot be spent to directly affect other creatures. It allows the wizard to take one of his free actions and do exactly that. On reflection, I cannot imagine that was the designers' intent.

The argument I can see in favor of allowing it, is that the wizard must guess, after taking normal actions with at least one of his freebies, that the next free action is also the last free action. Otherwise, he will be wasting one or more of his free actions. So there is a risk/reward equation for the wizard to consider, if he wants to do this.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, you could put in an easy house rule. You become dazed when the spell ends, until the beginning of your next turn.

However, people still use time stop for stuff like gating in 5 solars, so honestly, the disintegrate thing ain't that broken. Really, I think the "no attacks during time stop" rule is there to keep the wizard from casually walking around and decapitating several enemies while they're motionless. Once the time stop ends, they're no longer immobile and motionless, and thus no longer helpless, so readying a disintegrate isn't that broken.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

My issue with this tactic is that it neatly circumvents the spell's key limitation -- that the "free" actions cannot be spent to directly affect other creatures. It allows the wizard to take one of his free actions and do exactly that. On reflection, I cannot imagine that was the designers' intent.

Well, keep in mind that without the readying trick, a caster is basically trading a round that he could be using to offensively affect others (or buff allies) to buff himself, or put up durational effects. So at worst, he's just getting the offensive spell he gave up for time stop back. I've never had to deal with this, having never been DM for such a high level. I don't know if it's so bad, though. Our group uses ToB so I see WR Tactics being used from level 5+. This would be level 17+, and doesn't seem much more abusive...

That said, I have wondered if the caster should be aware of how many rounds he gets from time stop, so if I did allow him to ready and get another action afterwards, I'd definitely roll the d4 in secret.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you ready an action then your action happens right before the event that triggers it occurs...

So if you ready an action to attack when time stop ends, then when your attack happens it goes off right before the time stop ends....paradox occurs and your character is sucked into a quantum anomoly and erased from existence...seem fair?

The problem is that one of the examples given of the use of the Ready action is "I shoot the first monster to come through the door".

Now, if we assume that the readeied action must always happen before the triggering event, this is rather a pointless triggering condition. Your shot must necessarily occur before the monster comes through the door, so you have no line of effect, so the attack fails... and then the monster comes through the door and eats you.

The example implies that as well as 'immediately before the triggering action', it is also possible to set a readied action to trigger 'as soon as a certain condition exists'. In the example, the condition is "A target is available" - a monster has come through the door - and as soon as that condition is satisfied, but before anything else happens, he takes his shot.

In Sagiro's scenario, the condition is 'normal time resumes', and as soon as that condition is satisfied, but before anything else happens, he casts his spell.

I agree with the other posters that - except in the case of a Maximized Spell - the exact number of 'virtual' rounds available to the caster is unknown, so as Sagiro notes, there is an element of risk/reward or gamble to the decision to take the Ready action. But the basic principle of taking a virtual action to Ready an action for when the spell ends seems sound.

-Hyp.

 

[Muddman]

It doesn't work and here is why: a readied action is still a standard action, its just triggered when a specified occurence happens. It still takes standard action amount of time to do, you're simply waiting to take that action.

Once Time Stop is cast, he can't then take another standard action. You get one a round, and there are no exceptions.

What it sounds like is that the player assumes he can cast the spell and somehow delay it going off until the Time Stop is over, which simply isn't the case. He says the words, makes the motions, and the spell goes off, or in the case of casting a spell that effects others during Time Stop, it doesn't because the spell says you can't.

Bottom line, hes trying to take two standard actions in a round, which is against the rules.